Author Topic: fuel injectors and ECM  (Read 38758 times)

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2020, 10:03:26 PM »
Off to test drive a 67 plate Mk3 CVT tomorrow. Yes, we still have some faith left in Honda despite the fact I have not yet heard a dicky bird from Honda UK HQ re the ECU problem!

Jocko

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2020, 09:08:54 AM »
I had a CRV courtesy car from my local dealer back in 2017 and both my wife and I loved it.


equaliser

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2020, 11:58:04 AM »
I had a CRV courtesy car from my local dealer back in 2017 and both my wife and I loved it.

They're great cars the CR-V, comfy, spacious and very economical. We've had ours from new (January 2016), over 40K and it's still on its original tyres, no problems at all - only servicing in that time.

sparky Paul

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2020, 12:49:42 PM »
I had a CRV courtesy car from my local dealer back in 2017 and both my wife and I loved it.

In-laws had one of those, diesel with the ZF 9-speed auto - lovely drive, the gearbox in particular was fabulous. I say 'was', the car was okay until it ended up crumped in a ditch... subsequently replaced by a hybrid CR-V.

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2020, 12:14:37 AM »
Well the deed is done and we have our 67 plate Mk3 SE CVT Jazz. It has done 14K miles and been used as a courtesy car/demonstrator for about 12 months, prior to that was owned by a leasing company (presumably under a PCP scheme?). It appears to be in superb condition and drives really well - we couldn't fault it. Time will tell of course.

It has a one year warranty thrown in and has been serviced and MOT'd a few days ago (although the MOT, the first, was not due for a few weeks). Here's hoping that we never experience the ECU problem again! One minor gripe is that there is no car jack - is it right that Honda don't supply one with the Mk3 Jazz? There is a space for one in the polystyrene "thingy" in the boot. I intend to dump the latter and put a spacesaver wheel in there.

Jazzmeister

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2020, 10:34:23 AM »
Update: the repaired ECU has been fitted and all ok so far. I have had a preliminary reply from a customer services chap at Honda who says that someone from Honda HQ will be in touch with me within 5 working days. Meanwhile we have been offered £6K for the Mk2 Jazz in part-ex against a newer Mk3 (probably 2017 latest as £11K is our max price). Currently there are none to be had in our region but some expected in soon.
Jeff with your issue was an injector also replaced or did the ECU die on its own?
Mk I 2007 Honda Jazz 1.5 CVT | Previous car - Mk II 2012 Honda Jazz 1.3 Cvt

Derkie54

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2020, 11:46:43 AM »
Well the deed is done and we have our 67 plate Mk3 SE CVT Jazz. It has done 14K miles and been used as a courtesy car/demonstrator for about 12 months, prior to that was owned by a leasing company (presumably under a PCP scheme?). It appears to be in superb condition and drives really well - we couldn't fault it. Time will tell of course.

It has a one year warranty thrown in and has been serviced and MOT'd a few days ago (although the MOT, the first, was not due for a few weeks). Here's hoping that we never experience the ECU problem again! One minor gripe is that there is no car jack - is it right that Honda don't supply one with the Mk3 Jazz? There is a space for one in the polystyrene "thingy" in the boot. I intend to dump the latter and put a spacesaver wheel in there.

Mine never had a jack either. I suppose the theory at Honda is having a tyre repair kit means you don't have to take the wheel off so you don't need a jack......a bit penny pinching isn't it.
I bought a space saver and jack, it all fits ok but the spare sits about 10mm proud of the floor, but that's not a big problem for me.
It will be alright in the end, if it's not alright then it's not the end !

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2020, 11:02:28 PM »
Update: the repaired ECU has been fitted and all ok so far. I have had a preliminary reply from a customer services chap at Honda who says that someone from Honda HQ will be in touch with me within 5 working days. Meanwhile we have been offered £6K for the Mk2 Jazz in part-ex against a newer Mk3 (probably 2017 latest as £11K is our max price). Currently there are none to be had in our region but some expected in soon.
Jeff with your issue was an injector also replaced or did the ECU die on its own?

The initial problem was an injector failure which in turn caused damage to the ECU. I don't think I could really expect Honda to respond if it was just an injector as they would probably claim fair wear and tear. However the fact the failure then caused the ECU to be damaged is a different matter I think, maybe a design fault?

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2020, 11:07:47 PM »
Well the deed is done and we have our 67 plate Mk3 SE CVT Jazz. It has done 14K miles and been used as a courtesy car/demonstrator for about 12 months, prior to that was owned by a leasing company (presumably under a PCP scheme?). It appears to be in superb condition and drives really well - we couldn't fault it. Time will tell of course.

It has a one year warranty thrown in and has been serviced and MOT'd a few days ago (although the MOT, the first, was not due for a few weeks). Here's hoping that we never experience the ECU problem again! One minor gripe is that there is no car jack - is it right that Honda don't supply one with the Mk3 Jazz? There is a space for one in the polystyrene "thingy" in the boot. I intend to dump the latter and put a spacesaver wheel in there.

Mine never had a jack either. I suppose the theory at Honda is having a tyre repair kit means you don't have to take the wheel off so you don't need a jack......a bit penny pinching isn't it.
I bought a space saver and jack, it all fits ok but the spare sits about 10mm proud of the floor, but that's not a big problem for me.

I have removed the polystyrene block and put the spare wheel in the space, plus a scissors jack, wheel brace, air pump, towing hook etc. As the spare is the space saver type it fits in easily. The snag is the floor covering is like a piece of cardboard and will take very little weight without the polystyrene block being there. I intend to make a support from a piece of ply slipped discretely under the existing covering.

Jazzmeister

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2020, 11:29:24 PM »


Well the deed is done and we have our 67 plate Mk3 SE CVT Jazz. It has done 14K miles and been used as a courtesy car/demonstrator for about 12 months, prior to that was owned by a leasing company (presumably under a PCP scheme?). It appears to be in superb condition and drives really well - we couldn't fault it. Time will tell of course.

It has a one year warranty thrown in and has been serviced and MOT'd a few days ago (although the MOT, the first, was not due for a few weeks). Here's hoping that we never experience the ECU problem again! One minor gripe is that there is no car jack - is it right that Honda don't supply one with the Mk3 Jazz? There is a space for one in the polystyrene "thingy" in the boot. I intend to dump the latter and put a spacesaver wheel in there.

Mine never had a jack either. I suppose the theory at Honda is having a tyre repair kit means you don't have to take the wheel off so you don't need a jack......a bit penny pinching isn't it.
I bought a space saver and jack, it all fits ok but the spare sits about 10mm proud of the floor, but that's not a big problem for me.

Does Jazz without spare wheel come with runflats?
Those are the only vehicles I've seen that don't come with a spare wheel due how amazing run flats are supposed to be.

Update: the repaired ECU has been fitted and all ok so far. I have had a preliminary reply from a customer services chap at Honda who says that someone from Honda HQ will be in touch with me within 5 working days. Meanwhile we have been offered £6K for the Mk2 Jazz in part-ex against a newer Mk3 (probably 2017 latest as £11K is our max price). Currently there are none to be had in our region but some expected in soon.
Jeff with your issue was an injector also replaced or did the ECU die on its own?

The initial problem was an injector failure which in turn caused damage to the ECU. I don't think I could really expect Honda to respond if it was just an injector as they would probably claim fair wear and tear. However the fact the failure then caused the ECU to be damaged is a different matter I think, maybe a design fault?

That's unusual, I don't think I've ever heard of that happening, you'd think they'd have some kind of failsafe to protect the ECU is the injector went faulty.

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Mk I 2007 Honda Jazz 1.5 CVT | Previous car - Mk II 2012 Honda Jazz 1.3 Cvt

TnTkr

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2020, 05:10:43 AM »
Does Jazz without spare wheel come with runflats?
Those are the only vehicles I've seen that don't come with a spare wheel due how amazing run flats are supposed to be.

No, tires are just regular tubeless tires. Instead of the spare wheel there is a temporary repair kit for repairing tire when it is still under the car. The kit consists of sealant liquid and tiny air compressor. And there are lots of cases when the sealant cannot be used, such as when the puncture is on the sidewall, it is too big or there are multiple punctures. So the use is quite limited.

I'd rather call a tow truck than mess with the sealant. Even though it adds weight I am going to get a full size spare and a jack. BTW does anybody know the part number for Honda Jazz jack?

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2020, 09:21:18 AM »
Does Jazz without spare wheel come with runflats?
Those are the only vehicles I've seen that don't come with a spare wheel due how amazing run flats are supposed to be.

No, tires are just regular tubeless tires. Instead of the spare wheel there is a temporary repair kit for repairing tire when it is still under the car. The kit consists of sealant liquid and tiny air compressor. And there are lots of cases when the sealant cannot be used, such as when the puncture is on the sidewall, it is too big or there are multiple punctures. So the use is quite limited.

I'd rather call a tow truck than mess with the sealant. Even though it adds weight I am going to get a full size spare and a jack. BTW does anybody know the part number for Honda Jazz jack?

Is it necessary to have a Honda jack? Intuitively I would think that will cost 3 or 4 times the price of your typical Halfords jack for example! I have a generic one which is fine. Obviously get one that has decent safe load rating.

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2020, 09:26:13 AM »
Jazzmeister - yes, it is an unusual fault apparently but from what I have gathered it is just an issue with the Mk2 Jazz. As you say some sort of back-protection for the ECU should be possible - maybe this is the case with subsequent ECU's? I certainly hope so!

Jeff B

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2020, 12:23:37 PM »
Update: had the ECU repaired and part-exchanged the Mk2 CVT for a 67 plate Mk3 CVT shortly after. Have only had the latter a few weeks and it has hardly been used due to COVID restrictions, so nothing to report, except so far, so good.

I did eventually get a reply from Honda UK. Their conclusion was that the ECU is subject to wear and tear and therefore they are unable to assist further. I tried to argue that whilst I accept that a fuel injector may be subject to wear and tear, I cannot comprehend how a 100% electronic component with no moving parts can be subject to wear and tear; the ECU was clearly damaged by the failure of the injector and to me this is an immediate breakdown of that component. The notion that because the ECU has electricity flowing through it during normal functioning somehow causes wear and tear is surely laughable isn't it!? Especially after just 44K miles!

sparky Paul

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Re: fuel injectors and ECM
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2020, 11:17:06 AM »
The notion that because the ECU has electricity flowing through it during normal functioning somehow causes wear and tear is surely laughable isn't it!? Especially after just 44K miles!

I suspect your ECU problem was nothing to do with 'wear & tear' as such, but the ECU being unprotected internally against an external short circuit caused by the dead injector. What they are really saying is "it's nearly 10 years old, you've had your money's worth."

Stand by for a bit of waffle, but there is a serious point to it at the end.

There are a few problems that particularly afflict modern electronics as they age. Certain components deteriorate with age, and loads of cheap electronics have been manufactured using poor quality capacitors - up until very recently, there was an epidemic of cheap TVs failing after 18-36 months due to junk power supply capacitors. On this score, things have improved a bit.

The other thing that has caused problems is the introduction of lead free solder. It's prone to dry joints where heat cycling is involved, and in older equipment, weirdly grows conductive crystalline threads, causing short circuits. The fix in both cases is to remove it and re-solder with good old fashioned leaded solder.

That's progress for you.

Now comes the punchline. In ten years time, when people like us are looking at buying secondhand hybrid and electric cars, the electronics in these will be approaching the point when the problems start piling up. Even before you consider the batteries, the electronics are so complex, repairs will soon become uneconomic.

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