Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: jazzaro on May 13, 2023, 12:03:37 AM
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In many european countries now some models can legally fit LED retrofit bulbs, and the GK Jazz is one of them if the bulb is a NIGHT BREAKER LED H4.
https://www.osram.de/am/night-breaker-led/night-breaker-led-ledcheck.jsp?mkt=/nb-led/
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Technically cannot do this in UK.
Unless LED bulb is original fitment it will fail the MOT test and could even get you a ticket from an over zealous traffic cop.
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As I understand the UK position, each type of bulb :
Halogen
HID
LED
The reflector and housing is specifically designed to control the beam pattern and not to produce dazzle to oncoming drivers.
If you mix and match reflector/housing to the wrong type of bulb they will fail the MOT and as above, a knowledgeable traffic cop will ticket you.
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Technically cannot do this in UK.
Unless LED bulb is original fitment it will fail the MOT test and could even get you a ticket from an over zealous traffic cop.
Whilst the above statement may be technically correct, I have been using H4 Led bulbs as supplied by Classiccarleds Ltd, on my previous cars without any problems, for some years.
The MOT test is only interested in whether they pass the beam pattern test OK and thus do not blind approaching drivers. In fact these LED bulbs have slightly better beam pattern than the standard bulb.
The MOT test does not allow for the headlamp to be stripped and checked, so how would the tester (or an over zealous traffic cop) know?
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The fact some European countries allow some types of led conversion bulbs on some cars suggests to me the mk3 headlight reflector design is near enough compatible with LED . The UK take an simplified blanket ban . all are illegal, no complicated exceptions. But maybe a 'blind eye' sometimes turned. Sometimes.
And 'blind eye' is the issue. If your super bright headlights dazzle an mot tester or police patrol more than normally expected they only need look through the headlight glass to see if an led has been fitted.
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Yes an LED bulb is usually blindingly obvious as Lord V says.
Getting away with it for years at MOT time doesn't make it right.
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I thought MOT stations have some fancy machines that they shine the headlights into to test beam pattern ?
If so then any light leakage outside of the permitted limits would be quickly determined rather than a tester just physically looking.
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So if the replacement lights conform to the mandatory beam pattern, but are piercingly bright within that pattern, is that a pass or a fail?
And it’s the “bright within the beam” issue that is the problem, because others drivers will be subjected to that as the car pitches and bounces on a typical road, or the driver forgets to dip the lights.
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The fact some European countries allow some types of led conversion bulbs on some cars suggests to me the mk3 headlight reflector design is near enough compatible with LED . The UK take an simplified blanket ban . all are illegal, no complicated exceptions. But maybe a 'blind eye' sometimes turned. Sometimes.
I would express it other way round: Osram has got its LED bulb approved in many continental Europe big countries. And that is really a breakthrough! But true, there are still some countries that do not officially allow those.
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And it’s the “bright within the beam” issue that is the problem, because others drivers will be subjected to that as the car pitches and bounces on a typical road, or the driver forgets to dip the lights.
So do the original factory mounted LEDs as well.
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And it’s the “bright within the beam” issue that is the problem, because others drivers will be subjected to that as the car pitches and bounces on a typical road, or the driver forgets to dip the lights.
So do the original factory mounted LEDs as well.
I don’t think any version of the Mk3 Jazz has factory fitted LED headlights (could be wrong?). So I assume you’re referring to other marques. And yes, you’re right, they are a problem … but just because it’s done doesn’t make it right.
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The 1.5 Sport has LED lights front and rear.
Not looking forward to a bulb failure as they seem to be sealed units.
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In the past some MOT testers often didnt bother using their beam pattern testing equipment. If the headlight beams fell in the 'usual' place on the garage wall that was good enough. Maybe things are stricter now, but I suspect a few still cut corners to save time.
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I run my gd1 on led bulbs for a few years.
So long as you get ones with the little notch in so the beam pattern is correct you shouldnt have any problems. I made my mot man double check them, he said the cutoff was excellent and it fell within brightness.
It's the monkeys who don't adjust them or don't know how to install them properly which cause problems. Or the ones who fit HID bulbs. :o
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Now in Italy or Germany or France, if a policeman finds an Osram led bulb inside the headlight of my Jazz, I will show him the proper declaration.
"Street Legal for Honda Jazz" means that the assembly headlight with Homologation nr E4-17782 + Osram NIGHT BREAKER H4-LED part number 64193DWNB meets ECE37, ECE48 and ECE112 rules about minimun quantity of lumens measured in some points in front of the car (enough light on the ground and pedestrians) and about maximun lumens in other points (no glaring), and that the compliance has been certified by deutch StVZO, TUV-Sud and KBA organizations.
I think UK could easily follow the UE pattern, the problem is that UK drive with left hand traffic so headlight reflectors are different and the UK Jazz headlight homologation number will not be E4-17782 but something different, maybe E4-17435, and Osram hasn't produced any document for this headlight.
For administrators: if you try to post a message with an Umlaut (some deutsch words have it), the system will reply an error message.
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And it’s the “bright within the beam” issue that is the problem, because others drivers will be subjected to that as the car pitches and bounces on a typical road, or the driver forgets to dip the lights.
So do the original factory mounted LEDs as well.
I don’t think any version of the Mk3 Jazz has factory fitted LED headlights (could be wrong?). So I assume you’re referring to other marques. And yes, you’re right, they are a problem … but just because it’s done doesn’t make it right.
I am primarily referring to GK5 i.e. 1.5 Sport/Dynamic, which is equipped with LED headlights as standard.
This is not about what is right, but what is fulfilling the homologation criteria. If it annoys or disturbs some road users, is not relevant in regarding what is and must be allowed.
However, I do recognize different standpoint and assumptions depending on whether debater comes from a civil law or from a common law legal system.
I remember similar discussion in 70's when halogen headlights begun to replace conventional incandescent headlight bulbs.
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I appreciate this is off the original topic, but it wasn’t me who veered in that direction, and some of the comments did need to be challenged.
I am primarily referring to GK5 i.e. 1.5 Sport/Dynamic, which is equipped with LED headlights as standard.
I wasn’t aware of that, my bad, so I thought you were talking about retro-fitted bulbs. I wasn’t really referring to factory-fitted lights, which presumably are totally legal, although some marques do seem to stretch the limits of that. Whether those legal limits have kept up with modern lighting technology is another topic, but many marques with super-bright lights do cause problems for other drivers in real-world motoring.
This is not about what is right, but what is fulfilling the homologation criteria. If it annoys or disturbs some road users, is not relevant in regarding what is and must be allowed.
Well, some of the other contributors to this thread have admitted fitting LEDs illegally, and those may or may not conform to beam pattern and brightness requirements. I won’t judge the morality of that (although I have an opinion), but I wanted to make the point that that doesn’t just “annoy or disturb” other road users, it creates a genuine hazard.
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I don’t think any version of the Mk3 Jazz has factory fitted LED headlights (could be wrong?). So I assume you’re referring to other marques. And yes, you’re right, they are a problem … but just because it’s done doesn’t make it right.
Jazz Mk3 had factory led lights on the 1.5 Sport and on the top trim of the 1.3 (EX?) after the middle age restyling.
Factory headlights, halogen, LED, Hid are all legal, so they are certified for no glaring in standard conditions.
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There was an article in The Telegraph yesterday stating that many older drivers were choosing not to drive at night due to the brightness of modern LED headlights. It suggested as older drivers are more likely to have cataracts affecting night vision this was causing the problem.
I can relate to this as I avoided night driving a few years ago but after having cataract surgery night driving even with the brightness of modern headlights is no longer a problem.
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Now in Italy or Germany or France, if a policeman finds an Osram led bulb inside the headlight of my Jazz, I will show him the proper declaration.
"Street Legal for Honda Jazz" means that the assembly headlight with Homologation nr E4-17782 + Osram NIGHT BREAKER H4-LED part number 64193DWNB meets ECE37, ECE48 and ECE112 rules about minimun quantity of lumens measured in some points in front of the car (enough light on the ground and pedestrians) and about maximun lumens in other points (no glaring), and that the compliance has been certified by deutch StVZO, TUV-Sud and KBA organizations.
I think UK could easily follow the UE pattern, the problem is that UK drive with left hand traffic so headlight reflectors are different and the UK Jazz headlight homologation number will not be E4-17782 but something different, maybe E4-17435, and Osram hasn't produced any document for this headlight.
For administrators: if you try to post a message with an Umlaut (some deutsch words have it), the system will reply an error message.
Dazzle the police with homologation numbers! ;D
as for the UK following EU standards we currently have too many politicians who reject everything originating in the EU on principle however sensible it may be.
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Dazzle the police with homologation numbers! ;D
(https://media.tenor.com/hKsgsuQ5N8MAAAAC/cymbals-monkey-brain.gif)
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The headlamp units fitted with LED bulbs from the factory are different from those fitted with standard bulbs, making them legal. if you swap the entire headlamp unit (which is marked accordingly) then you can fit LED bulbs, legally, to any Mk 3 Jazz.
I suffer from cataracts so I avoid driving at night but elderly people also have reduced night vision. The typical 50-year-old driver needs twice as much light to see as well after dark as a 30-year-old. This reduction in night vision continues as you age so by the time you get to my age, even without cataracts, night driving is a chore best avoided.
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The headlamp units fitted with LED bulbs from the factory are different from those fitted with standard bulbs, making them legal. if you swap the entire headlamp unit (which is marked accordingly) then you can fit LED bulbs, legally, to any Mk 3 Jazz.
If present in the car with a factory led headlamp, you must also swap the auto-levelling system.
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I know HID's have auto levelling but I don't think LED's have ?
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I know HID's have auto levelling but I don't think LED's have ?
According to ECE48 rules, if the light source has more than 2000lumens then the car (or truck) must have an auto levelling system and a headlight washing device. If the vehicle does not modify front/rear height from light to full load, the auto levelling can be not mounted, so Citroens and other cars with rear axle auto levelling suspension can not have the auto headlight levelling system.
Halogens have about 1500 lumens, LED and HID can have different power: 25W Hid does not exceed 2000lumens, 35W hids do. The same for LEDs, present Jazz hybrids have a manual levelling system so this means their headlight do not exceed 2000lumens: CR-V LED headlights do this.
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GK5 Jazz with factory LEDs has an auto levelling system but no washing device.
It's actually expressed in quite complicated way in the directive, but with LEDs the levelling must be automatic. If the vehicle suspension (e.g. Citroen) automatically adjusts and thus keeps the light pattern within the limits, then the suspension functions fulfil the requirements for the auto levelling of the headlights. Nothing in the directive says which parts needs to move in the auto levelling, reflector, lamp assembly or the whole car. ;)
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I would imagine, in the case of the Jazz, if you went to the expense of changing the entire light units then that would incorporate the self-levelling, seeing as it is part of the light assembly.
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GK5 Jazz with factory LEDs has an auto levelling system but no washing device.
It's actually expressed in quite complicated way in the directive, but with LEDs the levelling must be automatic.
Not true, the Jazz GR (the present Hybrid) has full Led and manual levelling as my halogened GK3.
I must read the last ECE rules to understand what has changed from rules for halogen and HID.
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I didn't want to post again as I don't know, but I'm also sure the MK4 Jazz, with full LED, only has the manual rotary switch to adjust the beam height dependent on load.
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Okay, thank you for the correction. There must be some cross reference in the directive, which I haven't noticed.
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Installed.
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I can confirm that Mk4 Jazz EX has full led lighting with manual height adjustment.