Electric cars

[sparky Paul]

There are more than 30 charging networks across the UK, each with their own variety of pricing structures, payment methods, apps, and smart cards which are not interchangeable. That's a bit like Shell, BP, Sainsburys, etc having specific filler nozzles that only fit certain types of car, and will only allow you to pay with their own bespoke payment cards.

Whilst many of the larger commercial operators do have registration scheme for various billing and discounting arrangements, all of the charging sites local to me (Shell, CYC, Instavolt) accept standard contactless bank or credit card payment with no pre-registration. You can just rock up, flash your payment card and plug in.

It's the stand alone units which tend to require pre-registration and an RFID card from the provider. They are usually independent of the site on which they are placed, operated by a third party renting a space on the forecourt or car park for their charging bay. As these machines have no connection to any on site facilities for billing, they usually use their own method of identifying the customer, so they can be billed remotely.

One thing I have noticed is that prices are on the up. Shell (on the A1) have always been the most expensive fuel in the area, essentially they are a motorway services, but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh - it was around 30p the last time I checked, and that wasn't very long ago. The cost is half that in the nearest town.

[sparky Paul]

This is an interesting reference for those north of the border, ChargePlace Scotland is a very reasonably priced (some free to use) public charging network. Surprisingly good coverage, some of them are in very remote areas indeed - it shows what can be done.

https://chargeplacescotland.org/

[John Ratsey]

Some of those public charger costs are horrendous. Which? highlighted that some chargers bill for time plugged in as well as for kWh put into the battery. As batteries get bigger then the ability to do a full charge at home on cheaper overnight electricity reduces. I wonder how many people will get an EV, discover that the running cost is significantly more than with their previous vehicle and then do a U-turn?  In principle, I'm willing to buy an EV once range anxiety issues have been resolved but only if there's a significant saving in the running costs compared with my current vehicle.

The government could give people a strong push in the EV direction by steadily increasing the tax on petrol and diesel which also provides an incentive to dump gas-guzzlers in favour of more economical ICE vehicles and thus help the bottom line on the carbon calcs. However, the current government doesn't seem inclined to do this. They should have added more tax when fuel prices dropped a year ago and people wouldn't have noticed.

[embee]

The deal breaker for me right now is that I want/need to be able to tow a small trailer. No small EV is homologated for towing as far as I'm aware. Some bigger hybrids are, but I don't want a big Mitsubishi etc.
I doubt this will change, the demand for towing is miniscule especially in the small car category. I tow with a 1.0L Yaris, it does the job fine as long as you don't want to go up steep hills in a hurry (often can need 2nd gear!  )
By the time I am forced to go EV it's unlikely I'll still want to tow, so that problem will go away.

[peteo48]

A devastating report on the state of play regarding EVs has just been published by "Which" - it paints such a bleak picture of what life with an EV is like that you would have thought it had been sponsored by the oil industry.

A caveat here. If you have home charging and never go more than 100 miles these issues aren't an issue.

"Which" sum things up with this pithy sentence:

"We can't expect people to make the switch to electric cars until there is a simple, accessible, charging infrastructure in place."

Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

As consumers we wouldn't stand for this happening on our forecourts. But this is the reality of electric car charging in the UK today."

[madasafish]

Reminds me of Smart Meters.
Another very expensive shambles.

[JimSh]

This is an interesting reference for those north of the border, ChargePlace Scotland is a very reasonably priced (some free to use) public charging network. Surprisingly good coverage, some of them are in very remote areas indeed - it shows what can be done.

https://chargeplacescotland.org/

It can be done and things will have moved on a lot since 2016 and will improve even more in the next few years.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/electric_cars__-_realistic_for_climbers_and_hillwalkers-9100

[TiJazz]

This is exactly how I explain EVs to people - as long as you have home charging and never exceed the range of the car in a round trip, it’s a good idea.

Or buy a Tesla with access to Superchargers.

Aside from that, stay away.

[sparky Paul]

Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

That's the thing though. In that respect, I think the Which report is completely wrong in suggesting that any major chain will force you to use any of those methods.

As far as I can tell, all the major charging chains operating their own charging sites allow you to roll up and pay by contactless credit or debit card, without any registration, app, or anything like that. Fair enough, I don't think you can pay by cash, but that must be a rapidly diminishing sector. This type of charging site, operated by BP, Shell, etc., will operate in just the same way as existing filling stations.

The problem starts when you try to use one of the many hosted chargers that are scattered about, operated by someone other than the site owner - they all seem to have their own payment systems. However, I don't think it's fair to compare this to the way that petrol and diesel is sold, it's a completely different business model. It's like comparing Tesco with Amazon - you wouldn't expect Amazon to sell you something without registering first, and I'm sure they won't accept cash.

While a petrol station needs considerable planning and capital investment, just about any business can have one of these hosted chargers plonked in their car park and take a rent from it. The reason these third party chargers have popped up is because of the ease by which they can be installed just about anywhere there is access to a reasonable supply.

I see these hosted chargers being worthwhile if one is particularly convenient for you, but I don't really see them as part of a national charging infrastructure. The big players will soon take care of that, as they do now with petrol and diesel.

[Jocko]

but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh

With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper

[Jocko]

The guys on the MG5 forum all seem to get about the country with no problems. Me personally, I would not want to stop 30-40 minutes every 150 - 200 miles, though travelling with my family, you have to do that, even with the Jazz, or face an insurrection.

[sparky Paul]

but they now charge an eye-watering 41p per KWh

With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper

In the context of the post, I wasn't comparing to petrol or diesel. I consider 41p eye-watering when you compare it to the 20p per kWh you can pay just 5 miles down the road - imagine how much trade a garage would do trying to sell petrol for £12 a gallon.

There's a great deal of scope for reducing your fuel costs with electric cars, especially if you can charge at home for 6-10p per kWh.

Have you seen https://chargeplacescotland.org/ I posted above Jocko?

[peteo48]

Another point made was this:

"Imagine if a major fuel chain such as Esso announced you would no longer be able to pay for your petrol or diesel using cash, credit or debit card at most of its garages."

"Instead you'll need different apps or wireless cards for most other petrol chains and there are more than 30 of them out there.

That's the thing though. In that respect, I think the Which report is completely wrong in suggesting that any major chain will force you to use any of those methods.

As far as I can tell, all the major charging chains operating their own charging sites allow you to roll up and pay by contactless credit or debit card, without any registration, app, or anything like that. Fair enough, I don't think you can pay by cash, but that must be a rapidly diminishing sector. This type of charging site, operated by BP, Shell, etc., will operate in just the same way as existing filling stations.

The problem starts when you try to use one of the many hosted chargers that are scattered about, operated by someone other than the site owner - they all seem to have their own payment systems. However, I don't think it's fair to compare this to the way that petrol and diesel is sold, it's a completely different business model. It's like comparing Tesco with Amazon - you wouldn't expect Amazon to sell you something without registering first, and I'm sure they won't accept cash.

While a petrol station needs considerable planning and capital investment, just about any business can have one of these hosted chargers plonked in their car park and take a rent from it. The reason these third party chargers have popped up is because of the ease by which they can be installed just about anywhere there is access to a reasonable supply.

I see these hosted chargers being worthwhile if one is particularly convenient for you, but I don't really see them as part of a national charging infrastructure. The big players will soon take care of that, as they do now with petrol and diesel.

I agree cash is likely to be less and less of an issue going forward. That said I have checked with one of my EV owning pals and he confirms that he still has to have several apps and RFID cards if going further afield.

Some companies - BP for one - are going down the credit/debit card route but others - like Ecotricity who have a virtual monopoly on the motorway network, do not allow universal access.

This can be fixed but it will need intervention by the state (ideally in conjunction with other countries) to force the issue. It's less than 9 years to the ban and I would argue the charging industry needs a severe kick up the proverbial.

This really isn't rocket science. Incidentally, by 2030, research indicates that the fuel mix of cars on UK roads will be 12 million EVs and 21 million ICE (some hybrid of course). Ideally you would want those numbers reversing. Anecdotal evidence (my neighbour owns a garage) indicates that resistance to going EV will last long after 2030 until and unless universal access and universal charging protocols are adopted.

[sparky Paul]

The guys on the MG5 forum all seem to get about the country with no problems. Me personally, I would not want to stop 30-40 minutes every 150 - 200 miles, though travelling with my family, you have to do that, even with the Jazz, or face an insurrection.

Of course long distances can be done, and these larger charging sites are being set up so you can park up, plug in and go for a bite to eat and a coffee. The Shell one near me is just like that - I wondered why they were building a KFC, Costa, Subway, etc., and then all the charging points appeared. I don't think that people realise how fast these sites are appearing.

In any case, 350kW CCS charging is coming - a full charge in 8 minutes. This will be the near future, fast charging and a common connection standard.

[peteo48]

I agree progress is being made. My argument is that it is not happening quickly enough and, as far as I can see, no progress has been made towards a universal charging protocol so ALL cars can recharge at ALL charging points.

Incidentally I want to go full EV and agonised long and hard about it when I last changed my car. The situation was dire for some of the longer journeys we make and it's not much better today.

Use the HS2 money I say