Electric cars

[Jocko]

Interesting graph.



Most charging points in Scotland are free to use, so the only way the prices will go are up.

https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/businesses-organisations/transport/electric-vehicles-chargeplace-scotland

https://chargeplacescotland.org/

[Jocko]

Vauxhall Corsa-e looks nice. Mind you the top model will set you back almost £34K.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

[madasafish]

https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-vehicle-charging-%E2%80%93-what-does-it-really-cost/n16833

Beware that charging costs are rising, ( as we all knew they would as more BEV were in use and people were committed ) as well as variable charging costs from charge point companies I reckon the government has a 'price per mile' running cost for vehicles in their database that is pretty much fixed,  and as BEV get more common they will levy tax on charging just like they do on fuel now - otherwise road pricing will ensure that cars are not too cheap to run - the last few years have been a honeymoon period for early adopters,  from here on in 'the only way is up'....

If charhing from home, tehy woudl require a smart meter to tell them usage is for vehicle recharging..
We have a smart meter - it does not work with our current supplier and the whole UK installations is a shambles..overbudget and still installing Mark1 meters unreadbale by many suppliers...

[guest4871]

Vauxhall Corsa-e looks nice. Mind you the top model will set you back almost £34K.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/new-corsa-e/overview.html?ppc=GOOGLE_700000001931902_71700000053265006_58700005125832113_p44982205953&_vsrefdom=mca&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrMHsBRCIARIsAFgSeI2OZqdSy3DwqIz9feKBQrwt3pi5aF7GlHWREYi0Om35zLuAa5wxWuMaAr52EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

A silent car accelerating in 2.8 seconds to 30 mph scares me witless. 

[Kenneve]

Something that hasn't really been discussed is the time taken to charge the battery.
A lot has been said about fast charging, perhaps in as little as 1/2 hour, but this can only be done at dedicated external chargers, like those situated in motorway services et al.

Fast charging is simply not possible at home, since the average domestic property has an incoming current limit of 100 amps, or 25 Kw

I'm not exactly sure what the capacity of the average EV battery is, but I guess a lot more than 25Kw, hence it could take perhaps several hours to fully charge, even assuming no power was used elsewhere in the house.

[sparky Paul]

If charhing from home, tehy woudl require a smart meter to tell them usage is for vehicle recharging..
We have a smart meter - it does not work with our current supplier and the whole UK installations is a shambles..overbudget and still installing Mark1 meters unreadbale by many suppliers...

Even if your smart meter was working, there's no way it can tell what you're using the electricity for. The breakdowns they give you for usage are based on average usage patterns.

I'm not exactly sure what the capacity of the average EV battery is, but I guess a lot more than 25Kw, hence it could take perhaps several hours to fully charge, even assuming no power was used elsewhere in the house.

The best strategy for home charging has to be overnight on economy 7.

[Jocko]

The best strategy for home charging has to be overnight on economy 7.

Without a doubt. I don't imagine many BEV owners, with home charging facilities, would do anything other than a slow overnight charge.
Kenneve: The Corsa has a 50 kWh battery. It says, "Use a home wallbox (7kW) and you can get a full charge in 7.5 hours.". What it doesn't say is, many EVs allow you to set a timer so that the heating comes on after the charge is finished, so the car can be lovely and warm before you get in it. From the house mains.

[culzean]

It will be so easy for government to mandate that all EV get a chip fitted that will communicate with smart meter ( which will also become mandatory if you want to charge an EV at home ) and hike the rate for charging,  or maybe all electricity users will have to pay more to subsidise EV users ( which will be a travesty ) - road pricing would seem to be the most straightforward way for government to keep getting money from their favourite cash-cow, the motorist.

Electricity has now become a 'fuel' for propelling cars and other vehicles and as such they will find a way to put a levy / tax on it.

The other thing is that economy 7 was introduced because conventional power stations could not just be turned on and off and had to be kept running when there was little demand at night so it made sense to encourage people to use power at night for things like storage heaters, washing etc.,  but with the advent of gas turbine powered stations, solar and wind ( wind normally drops at night ) - this means economy 7 will undoubtedly be phased out as there is no economic sense to continue with it - especially if the night time demand rockets due to BEV owners using power.....

[Jocko]

I am sure they will. If the tax is on the electricity then you need to fit solar panels and battery storage. If it is road pricing then that is fair and something I have advocated for a number of years. Or they may load petrol and diesel, as they have done tobacco and get money from the less well off who cannot afford a BEV, as the government does with every other tax and incentive.

[sparky Paul]

It will be so easy for government to mandate that all EV get a chip fitted that will communicate with smart meter ( which will also become mandatory if you want to charge an EV at home ) and hike the rate for charging

Whilst that would be technically feasible, I would think the ease with which it could be defeated would make it a non starter. It would also require the replacement of every smart meter currently in use. The ones we have now are not really that 'smart', their function is primarily to relay metering data back to the supplier.

I agree though, Government is not going to let go of tax revenue currently levied on road fuels.
.

with the advent of gas turbine powered stations, solar and wind ( wind normally drops at night ) - this means economy 7 will undoubtedly be phased out as there is no economic sense to continue with it.

That's not strictly true. Whilst wind does indeed peak (on average) in the afternoon at ground level, at higher levels (200m) it peaks between midnight and sunrise.

At 80m, the height of most large scale turbines, wind speed is spread more or less evenly throughout the 24 hours.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/JCLI-D-13-00286.1

[culzean]

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/renewable-energy-meets-power-grid-operations/

The grid has always been complicated,  but at least there were reliable sources of power connected to it that could guarantee supply,  when renewables were a small part of the supply it didn't really matter if they were producing or not,  but with more and more renewables being used and more and more reliable power stations decommissioned, and a exponential rise in demand to charge EV the whole thing is getting scary....

Here is a quote from an American site discussing power generation needed for evolving BEV usage in USA.

I clearly have less respect for Tesla, for at the grid level they've done little to ease our pain. At least in North America In order of concern:

1) THE GRID ISN'T AS CLEAN AS EVERYBODY SAYS. To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.

And the "hard to predict" isn"t just an understatement, but also the system is currently rigged in favor of renewables. When that math is used for a new solar plant it nullifies the calculation that justified building a conventional plant 40 years ago. That's in part why nuclear plants are closing and low capital cost fossil fuel (natural gas) plants are growing; their math is less affected by that slanted and unstable playing field. But at some point, whether policy makers choose to deal with it or not, that tilted playing field will start affecting solar. At that point, someone will build a new solar plant that causes other solar plants to have to curtail production on their best days. That's when solar implementation hits the ceiling.

[ColinS]

To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.

Pretty irrelevant now as President Trump will have them all back on coal powered generation soon

[madasafish]

To use California as example, which claims to have "half" it's energy coming from renewables (what they leave out is that this is only for brief periods on certain sunny days), the truth about California is much harsher- due to years of drought and a trend toward closure of all the extant nuclear plants, California relies heavily on fossil fuels at night... and all you guys seem to want to "charge at night when power costs less". The reality is that some nights CA exceeds 80% fossil fuel on the grid. Night grid carbon is UP substantially in the last 15 years... and it will continue to climb as nuclear units close and CA builds massive new natural gas power plants.

Pretty irrelevant now as President Trump will have them all back on coal powered generation soon

US exeprience is irreleavant. We pay green energy producers to produce when not needed and non green to produce when not needed as backup..
If we did not, no-one would invest and we would have no power at night...

I use Gridwatch and on cold winless days there is near zero solar wnd wind power...

[culzean]

US exeprience is irreleavant. We pay green energy producers to produce when not needed and non green to produce when not needed as backup..
If we did not, no-one would invest and we would have no power at night...

I use Gridwatch and on cold winless days there is near zero solar wnd wind power...

I agree about gridwatch and the absence of renewables when you need them most 

That explains why USA has some of the cheapest electrical power ( half the price of UK ) and UK some of the most expensive... all the most expensive countries are in Europe - is this a coincidence ?  The USA article does say that suppliers are paid to not produce ( although at a lower rate ) and renewables still make money because of subsidies, but it can be hard on conventional generators who supply the base demand, remember the very lucrative 'feed in' tariffs offered to households with solar panels a few years ago - that was expensive for taxpayers and end users ( who at the end of the day have to pay the bills ).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

[Jocko]

Tidal is the way it is heading, particularly here in Scotland, with more and bigger prototype units, aided by government funding, being connected to the grid.
And Scotland currently has enough wind power capacity to power two Scotlands.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/scotland-wind-power-on-shore-renewable-energy-climate-change-uk-a9013066.html