Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Other Hondas & General Topics => Honda & Other Honda Models => Topic started by: ColinS on September 09, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
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With Honda having released its new CR-V hybrid and with the new Jazz hybrid’s April arrival, followed by a new HR-V.
I wondered what the benefits were in going down the hybrid route rather than the full EV route?
Things that come to mind are range and battery life with associated replacement costs.
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Personally, I think "self charging hybrids" as they now call them, offer little to the owner or the planet. They offer little in fuel savings, are, if anything, more maintenance intensive, and are only marginally more eco friendly to run. They do cost less in tax.
Plug In Hybrids (PHEV) offer much greater savings, provided the owner makes use of the charging option and doesn't just buy one for the tax incentives. For many motorists a PHEV can be run as a full EV for much of their driving, but gives the range of a normal car when required.
Believe it or not, but as a teenager I designed a car that used an electric motor, powered by a battery, charged by a generator driven by a constant speed petrol engine. And that was almost 60 years ago!
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My thoughts: Among the advantages of a hybrid system are (i) enabling the engine to run with optimum efficiency (usually in Atkinson cycle); (ii) recovery of energy when braking; (iii) power boost when accelerating; less lugging around the dead weight of a big battery. And, compared with an EV solution, there's no range anxiety or time spent looking for a charger.
However, hybrid systems add complexity although Honda's i-MMD system has dispensed with a conventional gearbox. If you haven't already seen it, play the animated graphic near the bottom of the page at https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/coming-soon/hybrid.html (https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/coming-soon/hybrid.html). The official mpg of Honda's hybrid CR-Vs isn't very good but, unusually, the mpg reported by users, is better than the official numbers https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/cr-v-2018.
I said in the EV thread a few weeks ago that I expected my next purchase to be an EV. Then, last week, I read that the typical cost of charing using a public charger is 30p/kWh. With EVs typically doing 4 miles / kWh that's 7.5p/mile so not much saving compared to putting petrol into a fuel tank. If you can charge the vehicle at home then you can pay as low as 5p/kWh (eg the Octopus Go tariff but it's for only 4 hours 00:30-04:30 which might limit the amount of charge per night) and some people might get cheap or free charging at work. I conclude that the biggest market for EVs in the near future is the commuters where cheap running costs can be set against the higher purchase price. For the rest of us EVs will have to wait until the price comes down further.
I reckon that half my annual mileage is on longer trips where I would need to use the public chargers (and plan the trips around them) so my thinking is now swing back to a hybrid. Preferably a plug-in hybrid good for around 30 miles so that short trips from home could be done on battery using cheap electricity. I reckon this would need around 50kg of battery which could fit under the boot floor.
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I do 250-300 miles a day, over a 13 hour day, so an EV won't last that long, and a mid-day charge will make my long day even longer.
The Jazz Hybrid saves me around 10 mpg per gallon which helps a lot when I am doing 60,000 miles a year, also the hybrid is considerably quicker 0-40 than the non-hybrid version (in my test-drive experience), so I saw it as a justified extra £1500 cost.
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The official mpg of Honda's hybrid CR-Vs isn't very good but, unusually, the mpg reported by users, is better than the official numbers https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/honda/cr-v-2018.
I might be able to help out with some real life mpg numbers from the CR-V soon.
The mother in law has bought one to learn to drive in (don't ask), but as she is now temporarily incapacitated by a hip replacement, my other half is over there driving it about.
Things that come to mind are range and battery life with associated replacement costs.
Hybrid batteries are expensive to replace, but anecdotal evidence seems to be emerging that the batteries are lasting longer than anticipated, and within the realms of a modern car's expected life.
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Preferably a plug-in hybrid good for around 30 miles so that short trips from home could be done on battery using cheap electricity
The 2019 Honda Clarity Plug-In Hybrid, available in the US and Canada, does 47 miles in EV mode, so Honda can do that if they want.
I think a PHEV makes a lot of sense.
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Been chatting to other half about the CR-V.
She says it's currently showing 51.4 mpg average on the dash, a mixture of short local journeys and some medium a-road stuff. No motorway. She says the lowest it has been is 50.1 mpg, It's not gone below that.
If anyone wants to know anything specific, so long as it's not too technical, ask away.
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Getting the benefit out of a Hybrid depends on how you drive it. If you are the type who drives up behind a car then brakes, or drives up to a red light and brakes you will get very little in the way of regeneration. And without regeneration the benefits of a hybrid are lost. To benefit from a hybrid you have to drive for economy, and if you do that with any car you reap the benefits.
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Getting the benefit out of a Hybrid depends on how you drive it.
She's a steady driver, but doesn't dawdle, and presumably drives it the same as she would her own Jazz. She has probably driven over 90% of the miles that's on the clock of the CR-V, and so far I would say she's getting similar mpg to her own Jazz, which doesn't seem too bad.
I would think that with some subtle modifications to driving style, you could get those figures up.
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I would think that with some subtle modifications to driving style, you could get those figures up.
As they do with any car.
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To be fair though, they're not bad figures from a 2 litre petrol car that weighs 1.7 tonne.
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Interesting debate. On the marketing side, if Honda made this current generation available in Hybrid, they would have taken lots of sales from Toyota and who knows... Swindon need not to be closed. I look at the current Honda range in the UK and I can't say I can buy any cars in their range as none meets my current requirements.
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Answering the original question on the benefits of hybrids, I would say right now they are marginal, based on my experience with a Toyota Rav4 2016 model year.
I chose this vehicle as I needed something larger than the Jazz and the HRV I had at the time. I also benefit from 4WD, heated seats and a raised driving position, due to where I live and the back problems I suffer with. The RAV4 Hybrid was an expensive option and I managed to save many thousands by choosing a used model from Toyota's own head office fleet.
This RAV4 (there is a newer model out now with a much improved hybrid system) is a petrol electric hybrid system based on the original Prius and Lexus hybrid design. It has three motors, a 2.5 litre Atkinson Cycle petrol engine driving the front wheels, and two electric motors, one for each axle. The rear motor only kicks in when needed and it is how Toyota describe this as an All Wheel Drive car. There are three driving modes, Economy, Normal and Sport. Sport kicks in full electric power on (I think) both motors and the petrol engine too and allows you to surprise other motorists from time to time. The key difference with Economy mode is the reluctance to use the petrol engine unless you put your foot down and lower air conditioning power.
In practice this is a very easy car to drive and it returns very good economy for a vehicle of it's size and weight given a) my driving style, b) the very hilly place I live and c) the nature of a lot of my journeys. I am getting (according to the dash) around 40mpg as an average on my many short and hilly journeys around my area. On a longer run across Yorkshire I can easily approach 50mpg without using any of Jockos techniques. If I try really hard it is possible to get more than that.
The main role of the electric system is to eke the most out of the petrol engine, assisting it when it would be inefficient, replacing it in stop start traffic, boosting it on the hills and totally replacing it on the downhills whilst recharging. 'Engine braking' is available by dropping out of D and selecting a low 'gear'.
There is an EV mode but in practice, the range is under 2 miles and your speed cannot exceed something like 20mph. It is pointless selecting it as the car will choose it automatically anyway.
So the advantages for me are:
a) reduced tax and fuel consumption, having moved back to a larger car
b) a slightly increased sense of superiority and feeling that you are doing something for the planet (but not really), especially since my home town is an Air Quality Improvement Zone
c) (over a plug in hybrid or pure electric) no need for charging technology and no range anxiety
d) poor man's four wheel drive
e) it's quick in Sport mode!
f) automatic gearbox (my first)
Disadvantages:
a) batteries eat a lot of boot space and make for an inconvenient bump in the boot floor
b) not quite sure how the high voltage electrics will cope in flood water
c) more expensive to buy
d) people can't hear you in car parks and constantly stand in your way
In summary, a good idea but an intermediate technology for cars on the way to something better. I must admit, the Honda technology in the CRV and the newer Toyota technology, look like a big improvement over what is in my particular car. When I next change vehicles in a year or two it is highly likely I will have fewer dogs and can downsize again.
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The great - and major - advabtage of driving a hybrid or electri vehicle is you can feel content and smug in the your actions to save the planet and one upman/woman ship on your neighbours,friends and relatives...
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The great - and major - advantage of driving a hybrid or electric vehicle is you can feel content and smug in the your actions to save the planet and one upman/woman ship on your neighbours, friends and relatives...
Pretty soon there will be a vehicle that can be powered solely by its owners smugness and no other fuel required....
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My understanding is that a lot depends on how you use the car. When I bought my last Jazz I did look at the hybrid option on the Toyota Yaris but ruled the car out not because it was a hybrid but because, in space terms, the Jazz wins hands down. You would need to go up to the Auris or Corolla.
Everything I've read indicates that a hybrid (not a PHEV) works very well in a short stop/start type driving pattern (that would suit me actually) but the mpg becomes mediocre at sustained cruising speeds. Carrying all that extra weight of a battery and a motor must be an issue here.
The stop/start system works well on a hybrid though as you glide off in EV mode even if only for seconds but it makes for a much less clunky experience.
On balance I'm not convinced they are the long term answer to less polluting cars.
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A little bit late for participating the discussion but I adore the hybrids after having owned a ZE1 for 10 years and a ZE2 for five years. Unless you'd like a racecar the instant low-end torque of a hybrid is very good esp. coupled with CVT. You can drive a hybrid as any other car but with a little bit of effort you can reach a very low fuel consumption.
Most important advantage: you can fill up the range extender (well, fuel tank) anytime, anywhere. Let's see what people think about full EV when they run out of electrons or the charging station doesn't work for some reason or you queue an hour to charge it another 30 minutes. EV drivers will learn the telephone number of the towing service by heart.
Maybe a little bit pessimistic about full EV but I don't trust the ongoing marketing hype about EV. The hybrid battery lasts 15+ years. The only thing a hybrid doesn't like is sitting around for weeks or months.
It's pretty a shame that Honda is not Toyota. If it wasn't so expensive I'd say byebye to Honda and would buy a new Corolla hybrid. The US gets the Accord Hybrid and the new Insight Hybrid since a few years. What did we get here in Europe? The CR-V hybrid was a good start and the new Jazz hybrid might be a good one too.
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I have never driven a hybrid, but my engineering experience tells me that the only way you can get more out of a tank of fuel is by improving the efficiency. Every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses. When you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy there are efficiency losses. With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created. As for "but with a little bit of effort you can reach a very low fuel consumption", you can do that with a standard ICE car. I think hybrids are just motor manufacturers pretending to go green.
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One thing I will say in favour of hybrids is that they do offer a very smooth driving experience around the town. I found that during a test drive in a Yaris back in early 2018 but I also find it when I take a taxi which, round our way, is a Prius more often than not.
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I have never driven a hybrid, but my engineering experience tells me that the only way you can get more out of a tank of fuel is by improving the efficiency. Every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses. When you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy there are efficiency losses.
You're right about the losses involved but they are more than compensated by using a smaller ICE a hybrids allows (1.3 instead of 1.8 l). It would take a standard ICE of 1.8 l to match the same torque between 1000 and 3500 rpm like a 1.3 l hybrid. Above 3500 rpm the 1.8 l wins because the electro engine looses torque. But for a car from A to B these rpm regions are pretty rare (overtaking). In cruising mode (keeping 30 or 50 mph) the 1.3 consumes much less fuel than a 1.8, given the same car. Those +- 40 kg which the hybrid system adds to the car are only a small fraction of the weight of todays cars (2-3%).
The electro engine is mainly/only active during acceleration and adds around 50% of torque (even more in a Toyota) to overcome the low torque of a small but efficient 1.3 l. But 170 Nm feels like a 1.8 l to the driver. While braking you get part of the energy back for the next accelerations.
The key of the lower fuel consumption of all hybrids is basically the use of a smaller and thus more efficient ICE.
If you drive a hybrid as it teaches you to (let it roll, lift the throttle, using the brakes rarely or only for a complete stop) you'll reach a lower fuel consumption than with a standard ICE. If someone drives a hybrid like any other ICE which is more or less 'digital' (0 or 1) he bought the wrong car. :) He will still reach higher mpg with a hybrid but the hybrid is capable to reach a territory of mpg numbers a standard ICE will never see.
One example: my former ZE1. Took the car over with 35 k miles and 50 mpg, Honda says fuel consumption is 70 mpg, I finally got 78.6 mpg lifetime (over 60k miles) and 89 mpg for the very best tank in summer. Not to forget the 30 miles trip from home to home (with one cold engine start) with 102 mpg.
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Good article
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/hybrids-are-better
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Interesting article. The Aussie car buying expert, John Cadogan, makes the same points about the headlong rush to EVs only with more swearing ;D
In short, he accepts man made climate change as a fact but feels the emphasis on EVs is crowding out alternatives.
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With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created.
In a series hybrid, most of the time you are converting chemical energy to mechanical to electrical to mechanical. The batteries are only there to iron out the demand, storing any surplus or regeneration. The advantage of that is the engine can do it's own thing and run at peak efficiency.
All I can do is make an anecdotal real life comparison between the hybrid CR-V and the very similar 2017 diesel auto it replaced. With exactly the same sort of driving, mainly local and around town, the petrol hybrid averages just over 51mpg, whilst the diesel was doing around 43mpg. I don't think that's to be sniffed at for the size of car.
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With a hybrid you convert chemical energy to mechanical energy, to electrical energy, to chemical energy, to electrical energy, to mechanical energy, with losses at every stage. A hybrid may make for a pleasant drive but I do not see how it makes a great difference to the amount of fuel used or the emissions created.
In a series hybrid, most of the time you are converting chemical energy to mechanical to electrical to mechanical. The batteries are only there to iron out the demand, storing any surplus or regeneration. The advantage of that is the engine can do it's own thing and run at peak efficiency.
All I can do is make an anecdotal real life comparison between the hybrid CR-V and the very similar 2017 diesel auto it replaced. With exactly the same sort of driving, mainly local and around town, the petrol hybrid averages just over 51mpg, whilst the diesel was doing around 43mpg. I don't think that's to be sniffed at for the size of car.
Having had a petrol CRV, a diesel Freelander, a diesel XTrail and a diesel CRV, this is exactly the experience I get from my hybrid RAV4. I am getting better then diesel performance (acceleration, power and consumption) with no effort from a 'petrol' car.
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According to Honda's WLTP figures the 2 litre 2WD hybrid CR-V gives 40.9 mpg and the AWD 38.7 mpg on the combined cycle.
https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf (https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf)
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Diesel engines are good for taxis or for long distances. Around town and in traffic a diesel engine is not favored (hardly gets warm and low mpg).
The Diesel hype was pushed by the German manufacturers because customers wanted power/fun and high top-speed for their Autobahn and because they had no answer to hybrids.
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Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.
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According to Honda's WLTP figures the 2 litre 2WD hybrid CR-V gives 40.9 mpg and the AWD 38.7 mpg on the combined cycle.
https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf (https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20CR-V%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf)
I know, I'm just telling you what it says on the fibometer now. I can get the other half to take a photo of it if you don't believe me.
The figure from the diesel was also from the fibometer. The diesel auto was doing less than the official figures, the hybrid is doing more.
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Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.
The loss of cheap RFL from 2017, and the big improvement in modern petrol engines MPG will surely spell the end for diesels.
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Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.
Switzerland is -12% while Germany still believes in Diesel with only -0.3% to last year. Ergo: don't buy a German car. :)
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Pure electric car sales were up 144%, in the UK, according to today's Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders figures.
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Diesel car sales in the UK fell 21.8% last year.
Switzerland is -12% while Germany still believes in Diesel with only -0.3% to last year. Ergo: don't buy a German car. :)
The Germans firmly entrenched themselves in diesel, and because German motor industry pretty much drives the standards for emissions in Europe. they focused regulations on CO2 and virtually ignored NOx and particulates. The Japanese walked away in about 2005 saying very firmly that 'emissions wise Diesels are a dead end' and went away and concentrated on petrol hybrids... ever since then diesels have got more and more complicated and expensive chasing the rapidly diminishing returns of complex emissions controls....
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Diesel engines are good for taxis or for long distances. Around town and in traffic a diesel engine is not favored (hardly gets warm and low mpg).
Diesels are not good for taxis unless they are doing long distances. Most taxis are used in towns and for short distances. Their engines might not be subjected to cold starts as the drivers often keep the engine idling to provide heating but I suspect, having walked past plenty of these vehicles, that the noxious emissions are disproportionately high when this is done. Some urban local authorities are now actively discouraging diesel taxis while others are muttering about changes but don't want to upset the taxi drivers.
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Diesels are not good for taxis unless they are doing long distances. Most taxis are used in towns and for short distances. Their engines might not be subjected to cold starts as the drivers often keep the engine idling to provide heating but I suspect, having walked past plenty of these vehicles, that the noxious emissions are disproportionately high when this is done. Some urban local authorities are now actively discouraging diesel taxis while others are muttering about changes but don't want to upset the taxi drivers.
I guess you are right. 20-30 years ago diesel were taxis very common. With my argument I thought about the engine always being warm because a diesel needs a lot of time to warm up. Driving short distances with the engine not getting warm at warm is even worse, for the engine itself and the environment.
Nowadays, >90% of all taxis in Switzerland are hybrids and most of them are Toyotas, best quality out money can buy. Not so sure about Germany as German people have to drive a local brand like Mercedes.
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Huge fleet of Nissan Leaf taxis here. The council and NHS Fife also have fleets of the van equivalent.
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This injection system should improve efficiency of hybrids, Honda had something similar back in the 1970's but was too complex for electronics at the time maybe ?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-how-mahle-reimagining-combustion-engine
and this from Swindon....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-new-ev-motor-small-mighty-firm-behind-it