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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Jocko on January 23, 2023, 04:32:30 PM

Title: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on January 23, 2023, 04:32:30 PM
Let's try and clear this up once and for all.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on January 23, 2023, 04:43:12 PM
Nope, use a CTEK if I don't use the car in 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on January 23, 2023, 04:58:59 PM
No. And for 17 months and almost 13000 km. (8100 miles) it never saw an ("intelligent" or trickle) charger.
I must admit that the Jazz is usually kept in a frost-free garage when not in use.
I have never anxiously wondered whether it will start or not.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.  (Franklin D. Roosevelt)
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Thingy on January 23, 2023, 05:05:13 PM
Now the second winter for my Jazz. The car is parked in a parking area away from the house. During the winter the car is used once a week to drive 3.2 miles to Sainsburys early on a Friday, returning 45-60 minutes later. Only rarely to I go anywhere else. I have had no trouble with starting.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzist on January 23, 2023, 05:19:00 PM
Last year I had to turn on roadside assistance 2x because the 12 volt battery was empty. After checking by the Hondadealer, it turned out that the 12 volt battery was discharging because the GPS module continued to work after the ignition was switched off, resulting in a discharge rate of 100 mA. The problem has been solved by an update of the audio and navigation system. The 12 volt battery has also been replaced.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Marco1979 on January 23, 2023, 06:00:45 PM
No, 14 months and 22.000km. Not used for 14 days maximum.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: SebastianTR on January 24, 2023, 06:38:35 AM
Battery is variable according to usage and your life.

If your car 2 year old and you live in madrid and you didn't use your car for a month most probably your car will be work at first try.
On the other hand lets say your car 3 month old and you live in Iceland also it's winter. Your battery could end up in a week.

Batterys drains faster in cold you all probably know this. So If somebody have a issue with 12V battery that's probably owner fault or environmental effect.

I don't think (don't wanna believe actually) lets say 3-5 years old a car will have a battery problem.
Newer cars has LED, more stable electronic system, more stable other stuff thats draw energy
Manufacturers are making cars over 100 years. Our battery system maybe 30-40 years old. They have enough experience for this. They know what they are doing, they know what they are using.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Robsterboy on January 24, 2023, 10:07:20 AM
Have had a battery problem since just before it's first service. The battery went flat and my dealer advised I call Honda assistance. They (AA) tested the battery and their tester displayed 'replace battery'. Dealer wasn't interested - only recognised their own testing which said the battery was good. car stood for 4 days - battery flat - call AA - dealer says good battery, charged, 2 days later flat. Dealer says battery good charged again, flat again in 2 days. now back with dealer who wants to 'experience' the flat battery and says they cannot replace the battery as Honda would refuse saying the mileage is too low (950) Am having lots of Groundhog days. 
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 24, 2023, 10:17:22 AM
I think the possibility was suggested  on another thread that some cars might have have had a flat battery  for long enough during the long voyage from Japan and storage to  permanently damage the battery. 

This might explain at least some of the cases where  problems have occurred. (at time of writing 96% have NOT had any problem)  In some cases a new battery under warranty may solve the issue permanently.

I'm surprised Robsterboy's dealer is behaving the way they are. If the battery is ok there is some other parasitic discharge causing the problem. They should find and fix the cause . Maybe that's why they need the car back to monitor the battery.  But to be fair  maybe  Honda have realised some of the warranty replacments were due to owners only doing 950 miles between services and toughened their stance on replacing batteries if the battery rarely got a decent charge in service.  Does 'fair wear and tear' also extend to 'unfair'   lack of use? 

Low mileage infrequent users  should also bear in mind the  handbook states the  High voltage battery needs  at least  half an hour of continuous driving with discharge and recharge cycles  within a maximum of  3 months . If thats neglected the  very expensive HV battery may be damaged and may not be covered by the warranty due to driver 'negligence'  . Worth bearing in mind for infrequent low mileage users
. Its not enough just to run the car for half an hour on the driveway. It needs to be driven to go through charge and discharge cycles.
 
 
Also bear in mind that 12v batteries going flat can be a problem in ALL modern hi tech cars,, especially those that are permanently transmitting to keys, phone signals  internet etc., Even a 'normal' car  with a full sized starter  battery   can go from fully charged to fully discharged (and at risk of permanent battery damage) in as little as a month.  And may not start in as little as 2 weeks.
 
Low mileage users increasingly need to take precautions.   Bring back starting handles. ;D
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on January 24, 2023, 10:28:15 AM
Have had a battery problem since just before it's first service.
.../...
Honda would refuse saying the mileage is too low (950)

That would mean driving your Jazz (on average) less than 3 miles per day?
Maybe that's why the battery died?
Oh... and find yourself a better dealer... :(
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on January 24, 2023, 10:35:19 AM
I charge mine a couple of times in the winter with a trickle charge if my tester shows it as 'dead', I think it would start anyway but by giving it a good charge it should extend the life of the battery.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Guinness 2 on January 24, 2023, 11:10:50 AM
What type/make of Battery Charger would you guys recommend?
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: davejazz on January 24, 2023, 11:28:08 AM
Have had a battery problem since just before it's first service.
.../...
Honda would refuse saying the mileage is too low (950)

That would mean driving your Jazz (on average) less than 3 miles per day?
Maybe that's why the battery died?
Oh... and find yourself a better dealer... :(

Or sell the car and go everywhere by taxi.  Quids in !
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on January 24, 2023, 11:46:03 AM
I think Robsterboy and all the other "low mileagers" (is that correct English...?) should keep in mind what our Lord Voltermore wrote:

Low mileage infrequent users  should also bear in mind the  handbook states the  High voltage battery needs  at least  half an hour of continuous driving with discharge and recharge cycles  within a maximum of  3 months . If thats neglected the  very expensive HV battery may be damaged and may not be covered by the warranty due to driver 'negligence'  . Worth bearing in mind for infrequent low mileage users
. Its not enough just to run the car for half an hour on the driveway. It needs to be driven to go through charge and discharge cycles.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: SebastianTR on January 24, 2023, 12:26:58 PM
I think the possibility was suggested  on another thread that some cars might have have had a flat battery  for long enough during the long voyage from Japan and storage to  permanently damage the battery. 

This might explain at least some of the cases where  problems have occurred. (at time of writing 96% have NOT had any problem)  In some cases a new battery under warranty may solve the issue permanently.

I'm surprised Robsterboy's dealer is behaving the way they are. If the battery is ok there is some other parasitic discharge causing the problem. They should find and fix the cause . Maybe that's why they need the car back to monitor the battery.  But to be fair  maybe  Honda have realised some of the warranty replacments were due to owners only doing 950 miles between services and toughened their stance on replacing batteries if the battery rarely got a decent charge in service.  Does 'fair wear and tear' also extend to 'unfair'   lack of use? 

Low mileage infrequent users  should also bear in mind the  handbook states the  High voltage battery needs  at least  half an hour of continuous driving with discharge and recharge cycles  within a maximum of  3 months . If thats neglected the  very expensive HV battery may be damaged and may not be covered by the warranty due to driver 'negligence'  . Worth bearing in mind for infrequent low mileage users
. Its not enough just to run the car for half an hour on the driveway. It needs to be driven to go through charge and discharge cycles.
 
 
Also bear in mind that 12v batteries going flat can be a problem in ALL modern hi tech cars,, especially those that are permanently transmitting to keys, phone signals  internet etc., Even a 'normal' car  with a full sized starter  battery   can go from fully charged to fully discharged (and at risk of permanent battery damage) in as little as a month.  And may not start in as little as 2 weeks.
 
Low mileage users increasingly need to take precautions.   Bring back starting handles. ;D

I agreed with you. Just I don't wanna accept that new high tech car can't have flat battery. It's can be a defect battery ok but can't be car manufactory mistake. It's just can't. They using same infrastructure for decades and new electronic component are getting better and better.
They can make an aerodynamic flaw with new car desing but can't understand a electric flaw
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: richardfrost on January 24, 2023, 01:02:07 PM
I cannot understand spending over £20,000 on a car and doing less than 1,000 miles in it in a year. I have been amazed at the tendency for some Jazz owners to replace their cars every 2 years. When I bought my last Jazz, there was an old dear having her perfectly fine 2 year old red Mk2 being replaced by an almost identical brand new one. The dealer just smiled at me when I asked why she would do that.

If you are doing really low mileages, just use taxis, ask a friend to take you or hire a car, if public transport is not practical for you!
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: davejazz on January 24, 2023, 01:07:16 PM
Let's try and clear this up once and for all.

Don’t know if I am setting the bar high or low with my experience!

Jazz, ,May22, EX, Manual gearbox, (I lied about that bit, but at least I have your attention) , 3200 miles.

Arrived back in the U.K. a fortnight ago, having left my car, parked up, on my driveway, for 29 days.

Looking at the Manchester weather, from sunnier climes,( as you do ); I saw that they were having the equivalent of, The Beast from the East. It’s difficult not to feel smug, but I try.

The bones of all this...

I always park the car in the drive at home, with the electric handbrake off. This saves that annoying clunk, when you first drive away;  the pads having glued themselves to the discs.
The only other thing, that is not automatic for me, is that I switched off the keys. (Thanks for the tip on here)
I always turn off the headlights last job, to save that last 15 seconds depletion of the 12v. battery.

So there we have it. A month in bitterly cold weather. (The car, not me!)

Without any hesitation, pushed the launch button, YES, and reversed out of the drive, cleaning the rust off the discs as I went. 

So the only 12v. battery saving, that I am SURE gives a small help, is the lights off.

So there’s my experience, a month in the bitter cold, without the starting handle, or the AA.

Just love the car.





Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 24, 2023, 02:39:02 PM
The following site gives some of the reasons modern cars drain their  battery so quickly when left idle.   The drain may be small but its a drain car batteries did not have to supply only a few years ago.  and its 24/7  - Thats 720 hours of drain at maybe 0.1 amp in  30 days.    It adds up.

There is also a chart that shows how quickly  this can happen even on quite large lead acid batteries.  The results may shock you  (excuse pun).   
https://homebatterybank.com/how-fast-will-a-car-battery-drain/
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on January 24, 2023, 03:11:53 PM
I am lucky in that I have off-road parking. I park right outside my workshop which has power. Attached to the back of the fixed door is a SMART charger and the plug and cable come through a hole and connect to a socket permanently connected to the car battery. Before I ever open the gate I unplug the charger and as soon as I park the car I reconnect the charger. I have been here 18 months and never had a starting issue, even with my six-year-old Jazz battery. You can just make out the cable in this photograph, coming out below the shelf on the fixed door.

(https://i.imgur.com/v1ezeIU.jpg)

Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on January 24, 2023, 03:23:13 PM
What type/make of Battery Charger would you guys recommend?
I have a NOCO GENIUS2UK (ie 2volts) which sells on Amazon for about £42. It's got a clear green/amber/red light display to show where it is in the charging cycle, I usually leave on for about 6 hours depending on what state the battery was in to start with - I use a Motopower Digital Battery tester (also from Amazon) to check the current voltage.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: 5thcivic on January 24, 2023, 03:55:01 PM
What type/make of Battery Charger would you guys recommend?

The standard recommendation is CTec, they are good but expensive around £80 or so. Personally I have a Maypole 4A which is basically the same spec but half the price and has been fine on 5 Civics and now the Jazz.  A bargain is the Lidl charger when they have it back in, I got one for £13 for the E. It is fully  electronically protected and can do AGM batteries (and 6V too). The only disadvantage the Lidl only has croc clips, the Maypole has alternative SAE connectors for permanent connection, so I bought some SAE leads on Amazon and crimped them on the Lidl (and the E) so the chargers are interchangeable between cars. An advantage of the permanent lead is you don't get the tiny spark sometimes when clamping the croc clips. Both chargers automatically stop current when full and can be left on for automatic trickle charging.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on January 24, 2023, 04:07:55 PM
Perhaps a separate topic "What is the best battery charger?" and stick here with "Have you experienced a flat  12 volt battery with your Mk 4"?
Since 91.4% have not experienced that problem (so far), it does not seem interesting to me to mix this topic with chargers...
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 24, 2023, 05:17:21 PM
I agree the figures tend to show its not such a major issue,  although some  will be taking precautions with a charger.  But it is a pain in the  bum if it happens to you , but then again  victims may be more likely to add their voice than those (the majority) who have never had a problem.

Those who's low mileage makes them vulnerable  but dont have  easy access to mains power for a smart charger  could keep the car permanently  connected to a solar charger. In the winter months these may only output about 0.1 amp or so  but it may be enough to keep the 12v battery topped up. .   (But not the High voltage one) 

I think Robsterboy and all the other "low mileagers" (is that correct English...?) should keep in mind what our Lord Voltermore wrote:

Yes its  correct  but quite awkward.  'low milers 'might be better.  But top marks. Far better than my Dutch and Polish skills (which are non existent  ;) )
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: peteo48 on January 26, 2023, 12:48:33 PM
I cannot understand spending over £20,000 on a car and doing less than 1,000 miles in it in a year. I have been amazed at the tendency for some Jazz owners to replace their cars every 2 years. When I bought my last Jazz, there was an old dear having her perfectly fine 2 year old red Mk2 being replaced by an almost identical brand new one. The dealer just smiled at me when I asked why she would do that.

If you are doing really low mileages, just use taxis, ask a friend to take you or hire a car, if public transport is not practical for you!

It's a decision for the individual but I've often mulled over my car usage - less than 3,000 miles last year. I could almost certainly manage without a car with a bus stop in very short walking distance and a train station 10 to 15 minutes walk away. We have regular supermarket deliveries although we always seem to need to top up.

For me, this afternoon is why I keep a car. Ad hoc trip to a local garden centre (to buy clothes!!!!) and have an afternoon tea. I also do the very occasional school run. Both these more or less impossible without a car.

In short having a car, for me, is a luxury but one I am happy to pay for. Take your point about the way people change their cars every 2 years - that said some may be on motability deals?
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzdriver on January 26, 2023, 01:04:55 PM
As mentioned previously, my Crosstar was written off after a head on collision with a car that was on the wrong side of the road.  My insurer eventually replaced the car with a new one, but my leg had to be rebuilt with titanium and I am not yet able to drive.  Every now and then my wife uses the car to give it a run.  I hope to be able to drive soon, but when the car comes round to its first service, it will have done very few miles.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Saycol on January 27, 2023, 12:41:32 PM
On the flat 12V battery topic, I fortunately have never experienced this. Car is 18 months old, 7000 miles. Typically max interval between driving it is one week so would not expect battery problems.

My wife’s car is a Mini with an AGM battery. She doesn’t use it a lot and I find it needs a monthly top up with the ctek charger. If I don’t do this, the “low battery “ warning regularly appears.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on January 27, 2023, 01:00:27 PM
If I don't use mine for 2 weeks CTEK can take up to 8 hours to fully charge so I reckon it's worth it.

On the occasions I've used the CTEK after just one week it often completes in just over 3 hours.

Also keeps the battery 'conditioned'
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on January 27, 2023, 02:43:29 PM
Repetition:

Perhaps a separate topic "What is the best battery charger?" and stick here with "Have you experienced a flat  12 volt battery with your Mk 4"?
Since 91.4% have not experienced that problem (so far), it does not seem interesting to me to mix this topic with chargers...


Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: peteo48 on January 28, 2023, 06:23:51 PM
One of the things I do occasionally to partially mitigate the very low mileage is go the long way round to the supermarket. The 3 miles return journey becomes a 9 mile return journey with some dual carriageway. This keeps the battery in a decent state of charge I would argue. I've certainly had no issues so far.

It's nice to have a bit of a drive.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Robsterboy on January 29, 2023, 09:36:32 AM
Following on from my previous post I left the car with the dealer to experience the non starting/flat battery situation, he rang the next day and said we have started your car no problem...doh!!! I told him to leave it 3 more days. The next call I got was to say they had tested the battery every day for 3 days - their testing displayed Good battery - recharge, next day Good battery - recharge, 3rd day Replace battery, completely flat. The battery has now been replaced under warranty as they concluded a cell had failed and the battery had been faulty.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: 5thcivic on January 29, 2023, 01:10:09 PM
Surely there must be an easy way for a microprocessor controlled battery test to identify a faulty cell?
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: R2D3 on February 02, 2023, 03:43:40 PM
Had to call out Honda Assist (AA) today as battery completely flat. He got car started with jump leads but all warning lights on and insistent bong.  Took it for a little run. All warning lights remained on as well as the bong. Connected his computer but unable to diagnose fault so arranged to follow me to local Honda Dealer (17 miles away).  After a couple of miles warning lights and bong stopped and all appeared normal.  Continued in convoy for 12 miles without incident. AA man then left and I took car for a 25 mile run.  All OK but am unable to connect iPhone via bluetooth, only with USB, so will need to look into this.  For ref, car is one year old with 6100 miles.  Stood unused in garage for two weeks, last journey was a 230 miles run with just one coffee stop.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on February 02, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Keep an eye on it. If like a previous car of mine, once the battery has gone completely flat it never recovers and will discharge again very rapidly.

Regarding wireless, I'd check in the engineering menu to see if Carplay wireless has been reverted to USB only after the headunit lost all power. There's a few posts here about getting into the menu via the 3 ringer salute.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on February 03, 2023, 09:11:52 AM
Had to call out Honda Assist (AA) today as battery completely flat. He got car started with jump leads but all warning lights on and insistent bong.  Took it for a little run. All warning lights remained on as well as the bong. Connected his computer but unable to diagnose fault so arranged to follow me to local Honda Dealer (17 miles away).  After a couple of miles warning lights and bong stopped and all appeared normal.  Continued in convoy for 12 miles without incident. AA man then left and I took car for a 25 mile run.  All OK but am unable to connect iPhone via bluetooth, only with USB, so will need to look into this.  For ref, car is one year old with 6100 miles.  Stood unused in garage for two weeks, last journey was a 230 miles run with just one coffee stop.
Did you put the parking brake on while standing in the garage, and do you leave the car unlocked? Usually a garage floor is completely flat so ok to leave the parking brake off. I also switch off the internal courtesy light as that consumes a few amps.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on February 03, 2023, 09:33:31 AM
I think I've posted before, a Honda employee once told me that you should always double lock as the second lock shuts down more circuits that aren't required.

In my case I always double lock and never use the parking brake in my flat garage.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: SebastianTR on February 03, 2023, 09:40:23 AM
Hold down a second... Parking brake is we call it hand break right?
Jazz has an electric hand brake but is it consume power when everything is off?
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: R2D3 on February 03, 2023, 10:19:47 AM
I think I've posted before, a Honda employee once told me that you should always double lock as the second lock shuts down more circuits that aren't required.

In my case I always double lock and never use the parking brake in my flat garage.

How do you 'double lock'?  No mention in the manual. 

I always use the parking brake in the garage else as pushing past it to reach stuff would easy move car.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: shufty on February 03, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
...I press either the boot button, door handle ridges or in some cases the key fob close button - twice.
Once to lock then a second or so later press it again to double lock.
I'm usually getting something out of the boot so the boot button is my usual locking method.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Steve_M on February 03, 2023, 11:20:20 AM
After a couple of miles warning lights and bong stopped and all appeared normal.

That would probably have been because the battery had been flat and the system needs resetting by driving a short distance. as per the Owners Manual, you will have several system warnings.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on February 03, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
How do you 'double lock'?  No mention in the manual. 

It's definitely mentioned in the manual, see page 183 Super Locking: https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_90f/file.res/2021%20Jazz%20Owner%60s%20Manual.pdf


I always use the parking brake in the garage else as pushing past it to reach stuff would easy move car.

Try: the Jazz in the garage (or wherever on a flat surface), leave the car in "P" and parking brake NOT engaged.
Push or pull (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/sportlich/g095.gif) forward or backward and see how much the car will move...
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 03, 2023, 01:02:04 PM
Hold down a second... Parking brake is we call it hand break right?
Jazz has an electric hand brake but is it consume power when everything is off?
Yes parking brake is the hand brake.( Americans also call it the 'emergency brake'. ) As far as I know it only  uses electricity to put the brakes on using an electric motor  , and again to release it it  . But shouldnt use any electricity when the car is at rest when parked.   Otherwise the car could roll away if the battery went flat.   (Unlikely but just possible is they work like the brakes on a truck.   All their Brakes  are permanently held  ON using very powerful springs.  The electricity or compressed air is used to actively release the brakes while the truck is moving.  If the electricty or compressed air fails  the safety default is the brakes lock on due to the springs and cannot be released.   I doubt they would use this for a car.

I dont know the details but I believe there is a fail safe system incorporated as part of the ABS system  that in the VERY  unlikely event of that both the main brakes  and the handbrake electric servos fail at the same time the car can  still be brought to a  stop in an emergency using the hand brake switch   via some alternative hydraulics. 
But "BRAKE HOLD" may be different.  This keeps the brakes applied during a temporary stop in traffic   at the same pressure as when you pressed the brake pedal.   This may require constant electricity to keep the  pressure applied.   But Brake hold only works  when the car is powered up and could be driven.  If the driver gets out of the car the system would apply the handbrake. 
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: SebastianTR on February 03, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Brake hold is OK I know it. But I was suprised aboud parking brake. I mean all the people and user manual say always use your parking break especially when you park at sloped ground. My parking lot is crooked and always use parking breake.
We use the car almost every day but I don't wanna wake up to flat battery  :)
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on February 03, 2023, 01:24:45 PM
Are we 100% sure the parking brake causes voltage loss ?

I know the 2 red lights, dash and button do go out after a few minutes.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 03, 2023, 01:44:49 PM
I think the reason Americans  often call the parking brake the 'emergency brake' ( often shortened to 'E brake')
is that in the days when almost everyone drove an automatic  the E brake was considered just that, an emergency way of stopping if the brakes failed.  Most would simply park in  "P" wthout a handbrake.

This may be ok on flat ground but not a good idea on a slope.    In P the car is typically held from moving by a small metal lug jamming onto some sort of slot.  If that  peg fails the car could  roll.

As stated I think any light on the handbrake goes off fairly quickly  and wouldn't affect battery parasitic drain much.  There are still  other systems running 24/7 that cannot  be switched off anyway
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on February 03, 2023, 06:12:11 PM
Are we 100% sure the parking brake causes voltage loss ?

I know the 2 red lights, dash and button do go out after a few minutes.
I'm not 100% sure but often with this type of switch where it's switched momentarily there is a circuit monitoring the switch to see if any action needs to be taken, it's not a simple switch like the light in a house for example where there are just two positions and the current is either on or off.

The courtesy light is another example of this if left on standby, it's continually monitoring the door to see if it's been opened, only a very small current involved but if it's left for weeks it can mount up.

Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: SebastianTR on February 04, 2023, 07:37:09 AM
In this video guy show the P mode brake
(https://i.ibb.co/qpYsdvV/Ads-z.jpg)

It's just a finger size metal stuff that hold the whole motor which this motor produce 250nm torque and car about 1500kg

When you put your gear P this little metal will hold the car for 1 year 2 years 5 years. Eventually it will have some defect.
That's why we had parking brake (hand brake).

My wife only used DSG gear for years and learned how to use it.
We never put car directly gear P and parking brake.
When we stop; my foot on brake. First gear to N then hand brake then take of my foot from brake then press brake again and gear to park.
It's doesn't matter on a flat surface but if you parking a sloped place and directly P all load will stay on this little metal finger firstly
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzist on February 04, 2023, 10:18:09 AM
I had an empty battery 2 times last year and had to call emergency help. I received a new battery and the garage solved a software problem with the GPS module, which remained active. I myself had the idea that the flat battery would have been caused by not putting the car on the steering lock before I left the car. I wonder if there could be a connection there.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2023, 02:15:36 PM
I have never known a car with any electrical connection to the steering lock. It is just a pawl that fits into a notch on the steering assembly. I try never to engage the steering lock.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 04, 2023, 02:33:09 PM
I'm not sure what you mean  by steering lock either.  If you mean you may not have  switched off the big  start up  'ignition' button  then yes that may have contributed. If you do forget the car normally beeps at you,when you get out ' but not very loudly  - I should imagine  :-[
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on February 04, 2023, 02:36:31 PM
And why have I always thought that the Jazz automatically goes on the steering lock when you turn off the power? Try turning the steering wheel when everything is off... ;)
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2023, 03:13:08 PM
To my mind, an electric steering lock is a frightening concept. If you are driving down the road and experience an electrical failure the pawl would drop down and lock the steering.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzist on February 04, 2023, 03:24:06 PM
When I have turned off the engine, I always have to turn the steering wheel slightly to lock it. I had understood somewhere that it was necessary to arm the alarm. If the car is not in the steering wheel lock, there may be an electrical system working that waits for the steering wheel to lock.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2023, 07:32:56 PM
I had understood somewhere that it was necessary to arm the alarm. If the car is not in the steering wheel lock, there may be an electrical system working that waits for the steering wheel to lock.
I don't think so but I have no idea how a steering wheel lock works with keyless entry.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jocko on February 04, 2023, 07:39:29 PM
This is how Ford do it:
STEERING WHEEL LOCK - VEHICLES WITH: KEYLESS ENTRY AND PUSH BUTTON START

Your vehicle has an electronically controlled steering wheel lock that automatically operates.
The steering wheel will lock shortly after you have parked your vehicle and the passive key is outside it or when you lock your vehicle.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Kremmen on February 05, 2023, 07:17:18 AM
I've never turned mine after parking but what I have noticed a few times after powering up is the steering wheel twitching slightly in a manner that indicated to me steering lock being released.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on February 05, 2023, 09:53:08 AM
The same here and try turning the wheel after you switched power off: LOCKED...!
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Neil Ives on February 06, 2023, 09:17:56 AM
Do we know for sure that there is a steering lock? I imagine the Jazz has electric power steering. Our Panda had that. Powering off the steering system may well give the impression of a lock and may explain the kick to the steering wheel when the car is powered up.
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Jazzik on February 06, 2023, 11:50:35 AM
Powering off the steering system may well give the impression of a lock

Here "the impression of a lock" is that the steering wheel can be moved (maybe) at most a fraction after powering off and that was it. Blocked. So shall we just say it's "locked"? What way? How? Does it matter? Maybe because of powering off the steering system. But powered off, blocked, locked... it doesn't move and that's what it's all about... isn't it?
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Lord Voltermore on February 06, 2023, 12:02:15 PM
I'm still not 100% sure  but I now think there is a positive locking action when you power down   not just  the absence of power assistance. Or movement when the power assistance  becomes active again.   I got a  slightly different effect  on 3 different power downs, possibly depending on whether or not the road wheels were straight ahead, and whether you are holding the wheel enough to feel   any slight feedback/locking  action. .   (probably best not to hold too hard in case you are resisting the locking mechanism. )

Todays experiments now complete on a  visit to the  supermarket.  The conclusion?   No worries. 
Title: Re: Have you experienced a flat 12 volt battery with your Mk 4.
Post by: Hub on February 06, 2023, 07:57:13 PM
For me, definitely a positive lock after power down- felt just like the locking of the old fashioned manual key steering lock!