Author Topic: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch  (Read 23959 times)

nowster

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2021, 10:40:27 AM »
I think that E10 is the thin end of the wedge ( well that would be E5 ) to destroy ICE engines and speed up the move to EV.... next thing to be added to fuel may be sulphuric acid,  and we will be told 'it reduces harmful emissions' ( yeah right, an engine that will no longer start and run will have very few emissions.)
Um. No. Fuels are marketed as low sulfur for a reason. Think of the trees.

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2021, 04:17:55 PM »
I think that E10 is the thin end of the wedge ( well that would be E5 ) to destroy ICE engines and speed up the move to EV.... next thing to be added to fuel may be sulphuric acid,  and we will be told 'it reduces harmful emissions' ( yeah right, an engine that will no longer start and run will have very few emissions.)
Um. No. Fuels are marketed as low sulfur for a reason. Think of the trees.

LOL,  thinking about how good sulphuric acid would be for the fuel system - it is the acid bit, nothing to do with sulphur, just commenting on the lunacy of politicians.  Can you get environmentally  friendly low sulphur sulphuric acid ?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 06:28:58 PM by culzean »
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embee

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #137 on: October 09, 2021, 01:07:49 PM »
When fuel contained lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead it also contained "scavengers" to carry most of the lead out of the exhaust as volatile compounds to prevent too much being deposited and forming excessive crud on valves etc.
The compounds used were generally halogen bearing (chlorine and bromine) which would form highly acidic condensate in cool exhausts. That was why exhausts lasted such a short time when we had leaded fuels, they rotted out from the inside. It also ate spark plug electrodes.
The lead compounds produced with the scavengers were generally pale grey/white in colour, which is why the exhausts looked whitish at the tailpipe. When lead was removed the tailpipe no longer had the white deposits from the lead and people (incorrectly) thought unleaded fuel made the engine run rich because the tailpipe now just looked dusty brown.
A decent modern petrol engine with catalyst exhaust running correctly results in essentially no tailpipe deposits.

Neil Ives

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #138 on: October 09, 2021, 01:14:07 PM »
A decent modern petrol engine with catalyst exhaust running correctly results in essentially no tailpipe deposits.
You can see how clean the tailpipes are, even after years of use.
Neil Ives

embee

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #139 on: October 22, 2021, 10:30:45 AM »
Oh dear.

Just read an item (home page news clips, unfortunately it thinks I want to see Daily Express stuff, this item about E10 fuel so I thought let's see what it is).

Complaint that a car is using "15%" more fuel. Someone complaining that shortly after filling with E10 his car's check-engine light came on. Fuel trim was now 35%, filled with E5 and the fuel trim was then 20% and the check-engine light went off.

Now, the trim doesn't mean 15% more fuel is being used. They comment that 20% trim is still too high but not enough to flag a fault, fine. Turns out the PCV valve had failed (crankcase breather, I assume it was thus letting in too much un-metered air through to the intake, hence the high fuel trim values).

So, putting E10 fuel in resulted in a system component which had already failed being identified and presumably fixed. Typical absolute rubbish story.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 10:32:20 AM by embee »

Neil Ives

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #140 on: October 22, 2021, 10:43:46 AM »
Oh dear.

Just read an item (home page news clips, unfortunately it thinks I want to see Daily Express stuff, this item about E10 fuel so I thought let's see what it is).

Complaint that a car is using "15%" more fuel. Someone complaining that shortly after filling with E10 his car's check-engine light came on. Fuel trim was now 35%, filled with E5 and the fuel trim was then 20% and the check-engine light went off.

Now, the trim doesn't mean 15% more fuel is being used. They comment that 20% trim is still too high but not enough to flag a fault, fine. Turns out the PCV valve had failed (crankcase breather, I assume it was thus letting in too much un-metered air through to the intake, hence the high fuel trim values).

So, putting E10 fuel in resulted in a system component which had already failed being identified and presumably fixed. Typical absolute rubbish story.
What; something in the Daily Express that wasn't accurate!?
Neil Ives

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2021, 07:09:12 PM »
Here is an interesting video about Ethanol in fuel and why you really need fuel injection for ethanol fuel mixes

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jayt43

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2021, 07:20:59 PM »
The Daily Express has a lot to answer for :-(

Meanwhile, in Europe, no one sees what the fuss is all about...

embee

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2021, 12:05:10 PM »
Here is an interesting video about Ethanol in fuel and why you really need fuel injection for ethanol fuel mixes
....
I like his videos, and they are usually 99% correct. One or 2 things I'd differ on.

He quickly and superficially writes an equation for the chemical combustion and comes up with 12.5:1 (ish). That's an atom count, it's not the way stoichiometric ratio is usually represented, which is by mass. For "regular gasoline" that's around 14.7:1 air to fuel by mass. He's not wrong as such, but his count version is not the same as the standardised mass version, just to avoid some possible confusion. (Why does this book say 14.7 when he said it was 12.5?)

Carbs needing a full rebuild every 4 weeks on ethanol blended fuel? Really? I haven't needed to do that yet. Either Harley are junk or the fuel he's using is cack (or both?).

Right at the end he describes fuel injection as being introduced so that it would allow different fuels in the future. That really isn't the reason for it. He says carburettors (...ers) "work a treat", well they don't really. They work, but not "a treat". Control of A/F with differing conditions is usually pretty non-existent, carb tuning is very much a compromise and an approximation under nearly all conditions. Transient A/F control is generally appalling, rich excursions during fast transients are huge resulting in dreadful HC/CO emissions. They usually have to be set rich to avoid lean stumbles/misfires etc. As said, they work, sort of, but not a treat.

Otherwise entertaining and educational.

Bazzzer

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2021, 04:08:30 PM »
Right at the end he describes fuel injection as being introduced so that it would allow different fuels in the future. That really isn't the reason for it.

It was found to be an excellent idea to counteract the wrong sort of g-forces in aircraft.

Also worthy of consideration... Miss Shilling's orifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Shilling%27s_orifice

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2021, 05:03:37 PM »
Rolls Royce did experiment with fuel injection on Merlin before WW2,  but decided against it as it resulted in lower power output.  Remember DB601 engine in BF109 was 34 litre against 27 litres for Merlin,  it was not until Griffon that RR capacity caught up with DB engine, at about 36 litres.  Fuel injection then was pretty crude, with no mapping - just mechanical linkages controlled by inlet vacuum.  Later Merlins and Griffon had a 'pressurised carburettor' which completely solved the negative G problem, and which was like a throttle body fuel injection system.

http://www.griffonmerlin.com/2010/09/30/why-did-rolls-royce-merlin-have-a-carburettor-when-the-daimler-benz-had-fuel-injection/
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Jocko

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2021, 05:06:55 PM »
It was found to be an excellent idea to counteract the wrong sort of g-forces in aircraft.
That is why in old wartime footage the Spitfires and Hurricanes roll onto their backs to dive and the Messerschmitt Bf 109 just sticks the nose down. Turning on their backs keeps the fuel in the float chamber (it's not just for interesting filming).

150234

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #147 on: December 17, 2021, 01:56:52 AM »
News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf

thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap


and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Late reply I know, but by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone. Likely all mk1 and mk2 Jazz's will be long gone and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28. If E28 does come to the UK the car manufactures will know about it long before and will build their vehicles accordingly.

ColinB

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #148 on: December 17, 2021, 07:28:14 AM »
... by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone ... and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28.

Seems highly unlikely, given that new ICEs will be banned by 2030 (and hybrids not long after). Why would manufacturers invest in developing new engines that are about to be banned? The only market for petrol after 2030 will be for legacy engines, and that will be declining. More likely is they’ll invest in EVs, as VW & Toyota are doing.

Kremmen

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #149 on: December 17, 2021, 08:37:30 AM »
I agree.

I can't see E28 being introduced here.
Let's be careful out there !

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