Author Topic: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit  (Read 5547 times)

jazzy_jeff

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help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« on: February 14, 2019, 06:41:42 PM »
in need of recommendations for a good kit and hopefully some help with the installation  :'( i read these are advertised as plug and play but it is rarely ever the case?

Kazcoco

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 07:31:32 AM »

Jocko

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 07:44:24 AM »
This, quoted from that link, pretty much says it all for use in the UK. US rules probably much more relaxed.

"LED lights are a great alternative to standard halogen bulbs in your car; they last longer and put out a bright, white light. They can be used as interior lights at any time, but can only be used as exterior lights (brake lights, number plate lights etc) if used off-road." and "LEDs are only legal when used as interior bulbs or off-road."

However, if in the UK you wish to use illegal lighting, and run the risk of insurance issues if you are involved in a serious accident, that is up to you.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:46:22 AM by Jocko »

culzean

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 08:58:02 AM »
This, quoted from that link, pretty much says it all for use in the UK. US rules probably much more relaxed.

"LED lights are a great alternative to standard halogen bulbs in your car; they last longer and put out a bright, white light. They can be used as interior lights at any time, but can only be used as exterior lights (brake lights, number plate lights etc) if used off-road." and "LEDs are only legal when used as interior bulbs or off-road."

However, if in the UK you wish to use illegal lighting, and run the risk of insurance issues if you are involved in a serious accident, that is up to you.

Both my wifes Jazz and my Civic have passed MOT since last March ( when new rules came in ) fitted with LED headlight bulbs from classiccarleds - it is all about the beam placement and pattern.  The thing that got aftermarket replacements a bad name was HID bulbs with single point source that could never achieve proper focus in a reflector designed for filament and cheap and nasty LED bulbs with large single round or square LED chip with too much power and again could not be focused in a reflector designed for filament.  Then Philips came up with their ZES chips that were the exact same shape and size as the filament and in exactly the same place in reflector as a filament ( or two filaments in a H4 bulb ).

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8738.msg67466#msg67466

The H4 bulbs from classiccarleds are definitely plug and play - a five year old could fit them,  they cost £70 a pair and are absolutely great,  the clear white 6500K light ( not that annoying blue 9500K like German car HID ) is absolutely spot on and the bulbs throw a lot more light on verge ( which is where you want it ) but no less light in front.

There are some attachments to my posts in the linked  thread with photographs of the beam pattern for my wife's mk2 with LED bulbs.

The bulbs draw less than 2 amps compared with 5 amps per bulb for filament and are rated as 80watt equivalent.  I have never been flashed by any oncoming vehicle and the headlights were not moved from the position when I had filaments fitted.

If you no longer like driving in the dark these bulbs are for you, have been using them over 18 months through 2 winters,  I used to get the Philips x-treme or osram nightbreakers but LED one's are much better,  but be warned they may not melt ice off your headlight covers.... but on the plus side the covers stay cleaner because of hardly any heat from LED the dirt is not baked on.

There are PDF with photos of Jazz beams attached to linked thread,  but I have attached PDF of Civic dip beam ( H7 classiccarleds bulb )to this post for anyone interested - they have a new bulb now that has copper braid cooling rather than the fixed heatsink on the ones I fitted,  the braid would be better inside Civic headlight housing as the heatsink is under the sealing cover, where the Jazz the finned heatsink can fit outside the headlight cover because runner grommet has a hole in it ),  remember photo is in daylight. 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 04:39:50 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 09:50:21 AM »
Both my wifes Jazz and my Civic have passed MOT since last March ( when new rules came in ) fitted with LED headlight bulbs from classiccarleds - it is all about the beam placement and pattern.  The thing that got aftermarket replacements a bad name was HID bulbs with single point source that could never achieve proper focus in a reflector designed for filament and cheap and nasty LED bulbs with large single round or square LED chip with too much power and again could not be focused in a reflector designed for filament.  Then Philips came up with their ZES chips that were the exact same shape and size as the filament and in exactly the same place in reflector as a filament ( or two filaments in a H4 bulb ).
I don't doubt it for one minute. It is still currently illegal to fit them for road use in the UK. It may change after Brexit, once the EU stops making our laws for us. Who knows?

Jocko

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 08:55:30 PM »
Contacted Classic Cars LEDs and this is their reply.

"Thank you for your email.
The question of LED upgrades and legality is a complex issue which is not made any clearer by the fact the regulations stem from the RVLA.
Generally LED conversions are not 100% road legal for external bulbs, though ours all show the correct output and beam patterns (which many don't) so are not normally picked up here by MOT testing and don't give glare to other road users.  The recent changes to UK MOT law has banned HID conversion for headlamps and some inspectors are treating this as LED too though we are seeing passes.  Other fittings may be OK for MOT purposes but this is at the discretion of the inspectors.  The Road Vehicle Lighting Act (RVLA) gives some exemption to vehicles of certain ages but as the act does not specifically mention LEDs it cannot be inferred by their absence that they are legal for road use.  As a result we are cautious and sell all our external LEDs on the basis of "Off Road Use" only.  Many insurers are now becoming tolerant of them and allowing the use of good quality LEDs such as ours as they are CE marked and they see them as a big safety improvement.  Changing to LED for external lighting is a vehicle modification that you need to advise your insurer of.
It's a grey area between safety and legality that we leave to customer choice.  Our Terms and Conditions which are linked to on every page on our website and email footer cover this in detail. Internal LED conversions are 100% legal and are not covered by the RVLA. 
External LED conversion is an area where the law has not kept pace with technology and there are many industry members lobbying for this to be changed.  However there is the battle with the large vehicle manufacturers and the influence they have with the authorities due to tax revenues, who do not like their vehicles being open to the aftermarket.  At present, and we believe unfairly,  LEDs need to be approved in every single light unit they would be fitted to. As you can imagine, this is an impossible task.
The wattage referred to in the RVLA actually refers to the light output, not the load.  It's another reason the legislation needs to be revisited and updated as it is seriously behind where the industry is with technology.
We've been looking at this for a couple of years.  The result of our research and correspondence received from a number of sources is as follows:
LEDs used for headlamps as LED modules for example, are always approved in combination with the complete headlamp (Regulations Nos. 112, 113 and 123).According to the Department of Transport (DfT), the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 do not mention more recent developments in alternative light sources at all, such as HIDs (or LEDs) and, according to the DfT, this means that, strictly, such light sources are not allowed under British law. Many people presume that, because something is not mentioned, it is allowed, which is incorrect.  The date exemptions shown in Schedule 4 only apply to technology that was available at that time, being filament bulbs.
We've also checked with United Nations Economic Commission for Europe  and they have advised that no type approval currently exists for any LED module in the EU despite what is claimed by some.  We have seen LEDs available that are E marked but when you delve deeper they are only approved for Electromagnetic Interference UN Regulation No.10 Uniform provisions concerning the approval of vehicles with regard to electromagnetic compatibility.  This does not make them legal for road use.  There are working groups within UNECE looking at retrofit LEDs but no decisions have yet been made.
As far as we are aware, this is the full legal position for external vehicle LEDs which is why we state "off road use only". We are continuing to find an approval route but it will not be quick unless the various bodies decide to look carefully at the excellent products now available and the fact that the beam patterns and lighting are often better than older filament fittings and provide a safer motoring experience.
Please let us know if you need more detail?

Kind regards

Duncan"

Italics are mine.

Kenneve

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2019, 09:10:44 PM »
Great minds think alike, I also contacted them today and got the same reply.
I have contacted my insurance company (NFU) and they say they don't have any problem with the use of LED headlights, as Duncan says, they are safer than the old halogen bulbs, so for the moment I will continue to use them.

d2d4j

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 09:32:16 PM »
Hi

I to use their LED, and informed our insurance company aviva.

I also made a point of informing the MOT testing station that LED were fitted to every front light (sidelight, headlight, main beam and fog lights), so they were fully aware

Their response was that as long as the beam pattern, light output and colour were within the permitted limits, it would be a pass

Our car passed its MOT

I believe culzean also did the same with the same result

Many thanks

John

culzean

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 08:04:53 AM »
Having used the LED bulbs through 2 winters now I would not be happy to go back to the 'candle in a jam jar'  filament bulbs,  I used to travel many dark and twisty 'B' roads in my daily commute and always bought the latest and brightest filament bulbs I could get,  but believe me there is no comparison with the LED. I wish the LED bulbs had been available then.  It is not so much that the LED are brighter ( which they are ) but it is the spread and quality ( colour temperature ) of the LED,  they throw much more light on the verge which is where you really need it at night,  and the 6500K white light reflects back from road signs much better.  The MOT inspectors are looking for a focused beam pattern that will not dazzle other road users and the colour of the light,  which is why I cannot understand why German staff cars with their very dazzling beams and really horrible blue light can ever pass an MOT ( I think that German lights have a software program in them that knows when they are being tested and alters the lights - a sort of diesel emissions defeat software, ).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest4871

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2019, 04:22:42 PM »
Driving against a stream of cars at night I find the colour intensity of LED bulbs to be too white, too sharp, and too piercing. They dominate my ability to see.

If they are rated at 6500K (= strong daylight) then that is very very bright for night vision use  - possibly great for the driver of the car that has them but very bad for those having to look at them.

UNECE* are looking at what is a very serious problem with a view to regulating more firmly.



*(The World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations is a working party of the Sustainable Transport Division of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe). 

culzean

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2019, 06:46:00 PM »
Driving against a stream of cars at night I find the colour intensity of LED bulbs to be too white, too sharp, and too piercing. They dominate my ability to see.

If they are rated at 6500K (= strong daylight) then that is very very bright for night vision use  - possibly great for the driver of the car that has them but very bad for those having to look at them.

UNECE* are looking at what is a very serious problem with a view to regulating more firmly.



*(The World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations is a working party of the Sustainable Transport Division of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe). 

You may be getting LED mixed up with HID lights,  these are much more common than LED and the HID are normally on the blue side of white ( above 7000K and go above 9500K , the light source is an electric arc between two electrodes ),  and blue is horrible at night,  which is exactly why I grouched about German car headlights.  Up until a few years ago it was common for people to fit HID bulbs into filament headlights,  and because of different shape and position of HID electric arc ( 25,000volts) in reflector the result was a very bright beam that sprayed everywhere,  that is the main reason all aftermarket bulbs got a bad name and to be honest some of the early cheap and cheerful e-bay LED bulbs were no better and in fact sometimes worse. 

Look at some of the video tests in orignal headlight thread ( I linked to it in post earlier on this thread) and you will see the vast difference in LED bulb beam patterns - in fact the Philips ZES chips have a better beam pattern than the original filament   bulbs  ( I have attached PDF of Civic H7 dipped beam to this post,  this one is at night - those beams patterns are very flat and well controlled ,  there are equivalent PDF photographs of Jazz MK2 H4 LED dipped and raised beams in original headlight thread linked to in my earlier post).

A lot of car makers are now fitting LED headlights because they are superior to HID and the colour   temperature of the light can be controlled much better than HID,  and these OEM lights will be CE marked - so if these are bothering you blame the car headlight manufacturer and the regulators,  not the LED light source.

I have never once in over 18 months of using the LED bulbs been flashed by an oncoming vehicle,  and a lot of the roads in Shropshire are very dark at night, and they are quick to let you know if you don't dip you headlights quickly enough,  so will certainly let you know if your dips are bothering them.

I have found the PDF photos of the H4 classiccarleds fitted to my wifes Jazz, they are almost the last post of this page in original LED headlight thread.   

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8738.0
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:22:16 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest4871

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2019, 07:48:38 PM »
Driving against a stream of cars at night I find the colour intensity of LED bulbs to be too white, too sharp, and too piercing. They dominate my ability to see.

If they are rated at 6500K (= strong daylight) then that is very very bright for night vision use  - possibly great for the driver of the car that has them but very bad for those having to look at them.

UNECE* are looking at what is a very serious problem with a view to regulating more firmly.



*(The World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations is a working party of the Sustainable Transport Division of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe). 

You may be getting LED mixed up with HID lights,  these are much more common than LED and the HID are normally on the blue side of white ( above 7000K and go above 9500K , the light source is an electric arc between two electrodes ),  and blue is horrible at night,  which is exactly why I grouched about German car headlights.  Up until a few years ago it was common for people to fit HID bulbs into filament headlights,  and because of different shape and position of HID electric arc ( 25,000volts) in reflector the result was a very bright beam that sprayed everywhere,  that is the main reason all aftermarket bulbs got a bad name and to be honest some of the early cheap and cheerful e-bay LED bulbs were no better and in fact sometimes worse. 

Look at some of the video tests in orignal headlight thread ( I linked to it in post earlier on this thread) and you will see the vast difference in LED bulb beam patterns - in fact the Philips ZES chips have a better beam pattern than the original filament   bulbs  ( I have attached PDF of Civic H7 dipped beam to this post,  this one is at night - those beams patterns are very flat and well controlled ,  there are equivalent PDF photographs of Jazz MK2 H4 LED dipped and raised beams in original headlight thread linked to in my earlier post).

A lot of car makers are now fitting LED headlights because they are superior to HID and the colour   temperature of the light can be controlled much better than HID,  and these OEM lights will be CE marked - so if these are bothering you blame the car headlight manufacturer and the regulators,  not the LED light source.

I have never once in over 18 months of using the LED bulbs been flashed by an oncoming vehicle,  and a lot of the roads in Shropshire are very dark at night, and they are quick to let you know if you don't dip you headlights quickly enough,  so will certainly let you know if your dips are bothering them.

I find DLR LEDs in daylight are sometimes too penetrating, smothering the shape/ size of the on coming vehicle. Some larger cars look like merry go rounds from at fun fair. I am sure you have come across them. I believe people have got a bit over enthusiastic (irresponsible) with the use of LEDs on cars generally .

culzean

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2019, 08:04:14 PM »
I find DLR LEDs in daylight are sometimes too penetrating, smothering the shape/ size of the on coming vehicle. Some larger cars look like merry go rounds from at fun fair. I am sure you have come across them. I believe people have got a bit over enthusiastic (irresponsible) with the use of LEDs on cars generally .

I agree a lot of daytime running lights are well over the top, but they should be dimmed when headlights come on and should not bother other drivers at night.   When I used to travel to and from work in the dark I was amazed at people who were driving around with only DRL on ( if they can do that it is a sign they are too bright, the lights though, obviously not the drivers).  When the DRL lights are on there are no rear lights on the cars and it is disconcerting to come up behind a vehicle with no rear lights showing in the dark.   The only reason I can see for auto headlights is that some drivers are obviously too stupid to know when they should be turned on.

I am amazed that those larger, bright coloured  LED displays are allowed in the rear of lorry cabs,  they have to be reflected in windscreen and block the view of road at night ( and maybe in the day for some of the brighter ones).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:24:18 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzy_jeff

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 05:20:05 PM »
https://www.halfords.com/advice/motoring/buyers-guides/led-car-bulbs-buyers-guide

Pretty much covers it I think lol

i only see bulbs, i would need a conversion kit from halogen to LED? or to replace the entire headlight assembly but that seems expensive for nothing..

from what i read im better off going with LED over HID for for a relector type headlight?

can anyone confirm this? (source: https://www.xenonpro.com/difference-between-projector-reflector-headlights)

culzean

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Re: help buying + installing aftermarket LED kit
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2019, 05:32:48 PM »
https://www.halfords.com/advice/motoring/buyers-guides/led-car-bulbs-buyers-guide

Pretty much covers it I think lol

i only see bulbs, i would need a conversion kit from halogen to LED? or to replace the entire headlight assembly but that seems expensive for nothing..

from what i read im better off going with LED over HID for for a relector type headlight?

can anyone confirm this? (source: https://www.xenonpro.com/difference-between-projector-reflector-headlights)

Go to the classiccarleds site I linked to they supply H4 LED  bulbs that fit straight into same reflector as  the filament type, and all that is extra is the constant current drive about 35x35x12mm that can be clipped anywhere nearby.

What Jazz do you have, these went into my wife's mk2 in about an hour and no beam adjustment required, they will fit any car that uses H4 twin filament bulbs, and H1 and H7 available and also H11 for fog lights. 

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/latest-led-headlights-h4-philips-z-es-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v

The constant current driver has a 3 pin plug on one end that the existing light socket fits onto and the cable from driver to new LED bulb is a 4 pin 12mm diameter that screws into flying lead permanently fitted to LED bulb,  the 4th cable is a temperature sensor that if the bulb overheats the supply will reduce or shut off power,  the ones fitted to my wife's car barely heat up the heatsink ( less than 50 deg C ) and bulbs will tolerate about 140deg C before any damage happens but the sensor will shut them down before that happens.

An HID bulb is a reflector designed for a filament bulb will not produce a well focused beam, the LED bulbs I linked to have Phillips luxeon ZES chips that are exactly same width and length as the filament, there are 16 LED chips per bulb, 4 each side of bulb for dip and 4 each side for main, the dip ones have same baffle fitted as you see in a filament bulb to focus into a flat beam shining downwards, the main beam chips have no baffle and produce a normal beam without cut-off.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 06:29:45 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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