Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694463 times)

TnTkr

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1500 on: September 09, 2020, 06:29:20 AM »
Hydrogen + fuel cell is the solution for longer range. The hydrogen can be produced when there's surplus electricity from wind, solar, ... and stored. It seems to work best with an on-vehicle battery as the fuel cell can then be sized to suit the average power requirement and the battery handles the fluctuations. And refuelling is quick.
I agree. Hydrogen fuel cell seems technologically most feasible already now. Much more feasible than ICE PHEV, which is an overly complicated and expensive solution for converting fuel to electricity. The infrastructure for filling needs a lot investments, but there is an chicken-egg-problem. It's hard to sell cars it there is no places to fill the tank and no-one wants to start building the infrastructure if there are no customers.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1501 on: September 09, 2020, 09:31:36 AM »
Hydrogen + fuel cell is the solution for longer range. The hydrogen can be produced when there's surplus electricity from wind, solar, ... and stored. It seems to work best with an on-vehicle battery as the fuel cell can then be sized to suit the average power requirement and the battery handles the fluctuations. And refuelling is quick.
I agree. Hydrogen fuel cell seems technologically most feasible already now. Much more feasible than ICE PHEV, which is an overly complicated and expensive solution for converting fuel to electricity. The infrastructure for filling needs a lot investments, but there is an chicken-egg-problem. It's hard to sell cars it there is no places to fill the tank and no-one wants to start building the infrastructure if there are no customers.

Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.  Problem with using battery powered heavier vehicles is the sheer weight of the batteries means less payload can be carried,  and of course thermal management of such large batteries.

Metallic hydrogen really would be a game changer
https://www.nasa.gov/offices/oct/early_stage_innovation/niac/silvera_metallic_hydrogen.html
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TnTkr

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1502 on: September 09, 2020, 10:43:22 AM »
Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1503 on: September 09, 2020, 11:01:07 AM »
My cousin's late husband spent his entire career in the motor industry. He was a mechanical engineer by training and had worked at Bedford trucks in Luton amongst others. He was a keen petrol head and after retirement kept in touch with the industry. I remember him telling me that many in the car industry saw BEVs as a transitional form of propulsion to get to zero emissions from transport. In the longer term something else would come in.

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1504 on: September 09, 2020, 01:08:58 PM »
I remember him telling me that many in the car industry saw BEVs as a transitional form of propulsion to get to zero emissions from transport. In the longer term something else would come in.
Agreed. I posted this in the 'Insane MPG' thread...

I think petrol and diesel are like VHS and Betamax.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell is probably Laser Disk.
Hybrid and PHEV is maybe DVD
BEV is probably BluRay.

What we are waiting for is the Netflix of motive power sources.
I think it will be in the form of pump-refillable tanks of ion loaded electric 'fuel' or some type of wonder battery.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1505 on: September 09, 2020, 01:44:48 PM »
Hydrogen probably more applicable to buses and lorries than to cars, they can get pretty much normal range,  and limiting it to specific vehicles would cut down the number of filling places required,  There are already hydrogen powered commuter trains and buses in use.
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?

Does it matter ? Either way only product is water.....

( will try to post links if I can find the articles again ).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48698532

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/11/birmingham-trial-20-hydrogen-buses/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 01:48:48 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

TnTkr

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1506 on: September 09, 2020, 04:30:05 PM »
Are these buses you are referring to really using hydrogen in fuel cell to produce electricity for electric motors or burning hydrogen in internal combustion engine?

Does it matter ? Either way only product is water.....
Actually I think it matters a lot. Compared to hydrogen internal combustion engine, the fuel cell plug-in hybrid electric drive has minimal noice, vibration, it has remarkably better efficiency in converting fuel to electricity and it can improve total efficiency with regenerative deceleration, it has less weight and much less moving parts, need for lubrication and cooling, plus all the benefits of plug-in.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1507 on: September 09, 2020, 08:19:37 PM »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1508 on: September 09, 2020, 08:24:34 PM »
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/09/petrol-and-diesel-cars-could-cost-up-to-1500-more-under-proposals

A badly thought out scheme like that would mean people would hang on to their older more polluting vehicles for longer, I know I would.. I am beginning to think Shapps has lost it...
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1509 on: September 09, 2020, 09:10:37 PM »
The Law of Unintended Consequences


Forcing petrol stations to include electric chargers?   Some will close..it is not that profitable..

Written by out of touch morons..

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1510 on: September 09, 2020, 09:50:02 PM »
A badly thought out scheme like that would mean people would hang on to their older more polluting vehicles for longer, I know I would.
People who buy new cars wouldn't. Most want their new car so much that £1500 would make no difference. That is obvious when you look at the tax on new SUVs and the like. New car buyers are different from motorist like you and me, that think about the depreciation and would buy a two or three-year-old car over a new one.
If the £1500 was a tax on all car sales, new or secondhand (like a motoring Stamp Duty), then I would agree with you. We would hold onto our old cars longer.

Kremmen

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1511 on: September 10, 2020, 05:28:22 AM »
Electric only cars are only any good for local journeys where you can return home and recharge overnight.

Also, don't believe the mileage in brochures. A friend has a Jag iPace and the only way he can get the published 225 miles is to drive with everything off, headlights, wipers, radio, aircon, etc. In a normal week with standard usage he's only getting 150 to 175 miles depending on time of day and weather.

He also has to park 2 miles from his office and get a bus as there are no charging points.

When/if electric is forced then how will drivers find a charging point without a queue for the min half hour charge to do another 50 miles or so.

It's a joke.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 07:34:19 AM by Kremmen »
Let's be careful out there !

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1512 on: September 10, 2020, 06:59:20 AM »
Like all cars EV's return range figures depending on how they are driven. My last ten top-ups with my Mk1 averaged 60.2 mpg and my average for the past four years is the figure beside my avatar. I bet there are very few Mk1's out there getting near that figure. The same is true for EV's. I'd love to see what sort of range I could manage with my driving style.

TnTkr

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1513 on: September 10, 2020, 08:25:12 AM »
Actually I think it matters a lot. Compared to hydrogen internal combustion engine, the fuel cell plug-in hybrid electric drive has minimal noice, vibration, it has remarkably better efficiency in converting fuel to electricity and it can improve total efficiency with regenerative deceleration, it has less weight and much less moving parts, need for lubrication and cooling, plus all the benefits of plug-in.

I was writing this rather quickly on a coffee break with my smartphone. Now I'd like to further open the benefits of this HFCPHEV (just invented a handy acronym for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) compared to hydrogen fuelled piston engine and conventional drivetrain. As I see it.

- Electric drive gives nice smooth torque from start to top speed without gear changes.
- Plug-in enables using possibly cheaper mains electricity or even solar electricity directly from the panels without any taxes and third party business profits.
- Better efficiency enables smaller tanks or longer range and reduces operating costs.
- Fuel cells can be placed without limitations of the mechanical driveline, which allows optimizing the internal space.
- Fuel cells require much less volume and weigh less than piston engine with auxiliaries. This enables improved volume and weight efficiency in the car. --> Smaller cars require less space on road and parking.
- With a clean fuel like hydrogen the fuel cells need maintenance next to nothing.
- When production rates increase, fuel cells should be much cheaper than piston engines with all needed auxiliaries.
- Less noise and vibration is good both for the neighborhood and for the passengers.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 08:56:26 AM by TnTkr »

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1514 on: September 10, 2020, 08:36:21 AM »
Don't know about the handy acronym. ::)

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