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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: jamjar on March 16, 2023, 12:31:43 AM

Title: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: jamjar on March 16, 2023, 12:31:43 AM: Hi, My car while driving home came up with a low fuel notification on a range showing 16 miles. As I was near a petrol station I filled up with £15 of petrol but fuel gauge showed no change in reading. When I reached home it showed a range of 9 miles. What could be the problem & would it be safe to drive half a mile to my dealer when it opens in the morning or is there a risk of damage & should I get it recovered by the AA?
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 16, 2023, 04:49:56 AM: On Civics there is a lower limit where the fuel gauge is known not to move after a small amount has been put in. But, I would have thought £15, 10 litres, would be over that limit.

Our fuel tanks, due to the magic seats, aren't box shaped but are quite flat, cover a larger area under the front seats so small amounts are often not recognised.

For me, my first ploy would be to put more in.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: IanG on March 16, 2023, 07:24:54 AM: Do you use the Honda app, as this also shows fuel level and remaining miles?
Be interesting to see if this corresponds to the level shown by the car’s fuel gauge/miles remaining indicator.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Nicksey on March 16, 2023, 08:29:29 AM: I have had a few instances when adding fuel to the tank and the fuel bars have not gone up, nor the miles available haven't changed either.... but later they jump up, sometimes after a day.
I realise the miles available indicator is calculated on the last mileage average, but the fuel bars indicator I would have thought was an immediate response. I always keep the tank full, and generally fill up after two bars have dropped.. which equates to approx £15, so not a small amount of fuel.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: jamjar on March 16, 2023, 08:37:32 AM: Quote from: IanG on March 16, 2023, 07:24:54 AM
Do you use the Honda app, as this also shows fuel level and remaining miles?
Be interesting to see if this corresponds to the level shown by the car’s fuel gauge/miles remaining indicator.
Yes, I use the app & it shows the same mileage as the car’s gauge.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: JJazz on March 16, 2023, 09:26:44 AM: Quote from: jamjar on March 16, 2023, 12:31:43 AM
Hi, My car while driving home came up with a low fuel notification on a range showing 16 miles. As I was near a petrol station I filled up with £15 of petrol but fuel gauge showed no change in reading. When I reached home it showed a range of 9 miles. What could be the problem & would it be safe to drive half a mile to my dealer when it opens in the morning or is there a risk of damage & should I get it recovered by the AA?

I topped up £10 of petrol when I was changing over cars and it didn’t register either so just add more petrol.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 16, 2023, 09:29:19 AM: When I had a loan Civic I planned to drive about 60 miles ,and the car showed remaining range about 60 miles. Mid trip I topped up with 5 litres which would mean returning it to how I found it . But the fuel gauge /range did not reset and on return to the dealership the car showed only 9 miles range. I knew it had more fuel than that but the next user may assume its running on fumes, and rush to top it up.
The same probably happens to the Jazz.

By extension if several drivers have each added a small amount of fuel insufficient to reset the gauges, but slightly more than they actually used, maybe in reality the tank is almost full!
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on March 16, 2023, 09:43:03 AM: I would say if you know you've put fuel in don't worry what the gauge says as you know it must be wrong.

Since I had the recall work done which I believe included a software upgrade my mpg figures and range have changed. After filling up my "miles done" plus calculated range would be between 500 and 550 miles with an mpg 60-70. Since the change my mpg is showing around upper 50's but the range has got longer, the two figures mentioned now adding up to around 600. The range is now obviously too high, the mpg figure may be partly due to the colder weather but I don't remember it being that low last winter so it's a bit of a mystery.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: peteo48 on March 16, 2023, 11:13:07 AM: This almost like a range anxiety thread concerning EVs.

That said, I have had a similar experience on a 2007 Honda Civic. It was very low on fuel so I put £5 in (cheapskate ;D) as I drove it to the dealer to part ex for my first Jazz. The fuel gauge didn't register and, in those days, £5 wasn't far short of a gallon.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: John Ratsey on March 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PM: The handbook states that the low fuel indicator comes on when there's about 5.3 litres remaining in the tank.

I once ran my Crosstar at least 10 miles with zero miles remaining on the gauge and then managed to put 37.66 litres into the tank including whatever fills the filler pipe. Honda doesn't want its vehicles stopped by the side of the road because they have run out of fuel but I've found that miles remaining reported by the Mk 4 Jazz to be less conservative than previous models. I think this is because there's less need to allow for being stuck in an enormous traffic jam where the mpg falls through the floor.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 16, 2023, 03:12:36 PM: I still tend to refuel the old fashioned way, when its down to a quarter full, 'whether it needs it or not' . Unless there is a compelling reason to delay such as holding out for a country or location where I know fuel is definitely available and significantly cheaper. But I often find that although the range indicator may show I should easily make it when there is about 100 miles left to travel the estimate drops rapidly towards the end. I then become anxious we wont make it after all. I know we probably will, but having to ignore the computer and rely on hope kind of defeats the object.

I can trace the origins of this anxiety to my 16th Birthday when I rode my Honda 50 motorbike for the first time. I went out without money confident that if I ran out of petrol I could switch to reserve to get home. (not that it would have helped much as we lived miles from a petrol station :-[) Sure enough I ran out, only to find the fuel tap had been set to reserve all along and I had none left. I had to push the bike for miles to a filling station then persuade the attendant to let me have half a gallon with my watch as security for the 3 shilling debt . Never again. Well except that time I ran out of petrol on the M26 because I was anxious to get my wife and baby home and thought we would make it. 15 miles short.. (baby in the bike top box - only kidding it was a car. They really guzzled petrol in those days. Cars not babies) Luckily there was a local filling station in sight just over the fence ,quickly sorted. Never again - really.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Jazzik on March 16, 2023, 05:42:31 PM: Quote from: John Ratsey on March 16, 2023, 01:45:39 PM
I once ran my Crosstar at least 10 miles with zero miles remaining on the gauge and then managed to put 37.66 litres into the tank including whatever fills the filler pipe.

First refueling after delivery:
30.08.2021 38,50 ltr.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on March 16, 2023, 07:16:42 PM: I tend to find if I refuel when the low warning flashes up I can put in between 33 and 35 litres until the pump clicks stop
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Whiteshark on March 17, 2023, 09:46:31 PM: Always tend to just fill up at half tank, so never really experience a problem.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 18, 2023, 05:19:18 AM: Same here, always top up at about half a tank.

You never know if you need to make a lengthy journey at short notice or we get a fuel issue causing long queues.

Just like to know I'm fuelled up and ready.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on March 18, 2023, 09:18:52 AM: I tend to fill up when it goes down to 30% or even a bit later. If you drive around with a full tank you're carrying quite a bit of extra weight with the additional fuel so it affects your mpg adversely.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: pebbles on March 18, 2023, 10:24:22 AM: have had a few loan cars from the Honda dealer when the Jazz is in for a service or repair, usually only to get home and back.
Put about a tenner worth's in and it never registers , could be embarrassing but the dealer just smiles , they are well aware of this.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: nowster on March 19, 2023, 12:07:28 AM: Quote from: Bristol_Crosstar on March 18, 2023, 09:18:52 AM
I tend to fill up when it goes down to 30% or even a bit later. If you drive around with a full tank you're carrying quite a bit of extra weight with the additional fuel so it affects your mpg adversely.
It's minimal. A full (40L) tank of E10 is 30kg of mass. That's the same as a child (4st 10lb).
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on March 19, 2023, 08:45:07 AM: Quote from: nowster on March 19, 2023, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: Bristol_Crosstar on March 18, 2023, 09:18:52 AM
I tend to fill up when it goes down to 30% or even a bit later. If you drive around with a full tank you're carrying quite a bit of extra weight with the additional fuel so it affects your mpg adversely.
It's minimal. A full (40L) tank of E10 is 30kg of mass. That's the same as a child (4st 10lb).
Any extra weight will increase fuel consumption, I can certainly notice a difference in the handling of the car when there isn't much fuel left compared to when the tank is full. It might not make much difference in the short run but will over an extended period.

If you've ever watched Formula 1 the reason all of the drivers are small is to reduce the weight of the car, and the handling changes completely when fuel is low. I know the Jazz is not comparable to an F1 car but the same laws of physics apply.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: nowster on March 19, 2023, 09:55:10 AM: Quote from: Bristol_Crosstar on March 19, 2023, 08:45:07 AM
I know the Jazz is not comparable to an F1 car but the same laws of physics apply.

With an F1 car, the mass of the driver is a significant percentage of the mass of the whole vehicle. Also they can carry up to 110kg of fuel. The minimum weight of F1 car including driver is approximately 800kg. The addition of a full tank of fuel is a significant proportion (14%) on top. Refuelling mid-race is currently banned.

The Jazz Mk4 is already heavier than a comparable non-hybrid because of the battery and motors. Its kerb weight is about 1400kg. A typical adult driver adds about 75kg. A full tank (30kg) is about 2% on top of that.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2023, 10:37:53 AM: I've never done the "running on empty" lottery. I know people who love seeing how much they can get out of the tank when the warning light comes on.

On the Jazz, I fill up when I am down to the last 3 of the 10 bars.

PS: I say never - I did do it when I was trading in my Civic. Put £5 in.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 19, 2023, 10:49:46 AM: That reminds me of a lucky escape I had.

Back in March 2007 I was p/x my Lexus IS200 for my first Civic. Normally I would top up every Sun as my weekly commute was about half a tank.

The Sun before the p/x I didn't top up and that was the weekend the Tesco petrol got contaminated and loads of cars were breaking down within miles of the filling stations round me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_petrol_contamination
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Jazzik on March 19, 2023, 11:44:58 AM: Quote from: peteo48 on March 19, 2023, 10:37:53 AM
I've never done the "running on empty" lottery.
--/--
On the Jazz, I fill up when I am down to the last 3 of the 10 bars.

There is no such thing as a "lottery" here. I often fill up when there is just 1 bar left (yes, that last one ;)). And usually I fill up between 31.5 and 35 litres, so there is still between 5 and 8.5 liters in the tank, which means about 100 to 170 km. Hardly ever seen a low fuel indicator.

For example, we drive on a tank of fuel across Germany from before the Polish-German border to just before the German-Dutch border, some 635 km at motorway speed (around 120 kmh/75 mph). And then the tank is really not empty. We regularly drive between 700 and 750 km on a tank, once an exceptional 875 km.
Coming to a halt with an empty tank is not very realistic in Europe with a petrol station (https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/120/sony/336/fuel-pump_26fd.png) every 30, at most 50 kilometers.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Pine on March 19, 2023, 11:55:05 AM: If I was concerned about weight in the car reducing fuel consumption I would go on a diet, but I'm not that worried.

When you fly they weigh your luggage. I have always thought they should weigh the passenger as well as their luggage.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: peteo48 on March 19, 2023, 12:01:11 PM: Jazzik - people do run out of fuel here in the UK. Indeed there are laws against running out of fuel on the motorway network (a fine is the usual punishment) and in various tunnels like the 2 tunnels crossing the river Mersey so people do "play" the lottery and lose. You see this from time to time on various police documentaries.

I take your point though, there is a bit of leeway when hitting empty.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 19, 2023, 12:15:57 PM: From similar threads on the Civic forum it seems that when the tank range says zero you actually have about 50 miles left.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on March 20, 2023, 06:30:29 PM: The Jazz has a min kerb weight of 1228 kgs so no doubt a couple of kgs heavier on the EX models with more equipment- even then no where near to 1400 kgs👍
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: nowster on March 21, 2023, 10:33:52 AM: Quote from: Lincolnshire Rambler on March 20, 2023, 06:30:29 PM
The Jazz has a min kerb weight of 1228 kgs so no doubt a couple of kgs heavier on the EX models with more equipment- even then no where near to 1400 kgs&#128077;

Just checked. The V5C says 1300kg for revenue purposes. I don't know where the 1400kg figure came from. It still doesn't invalidate my calculations.

The difference between having a full tank of petrol and half a tank (15kg) is going to be minimal.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 21, 2023, 12:09:45 PM: I think any extra weight from fuel ,eating too many calories ,etc will have more affect on mpg in urban traffic where the car is frequently having to haul that extra weight from 0 mph up to speed. . Also its less stress running with an almost empty tank when you know you are never far from a filling station.

But when clocking up miles on the open road, once you are up to a more constant speed a few extra kilos isnt going to make much difference to fuel consumption. Extra speed and wind resistance will.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on March 21, 2023, 08:07:21 PM: Going back in time the boot of my mark two escort had a metal toolbox with a selection of 1/2” Sq sockets pliers spark plug spanner spare fan belt holts hose weld bandage spare spark plug scissor jack gallon of four star and a tub of water and torch oh yes a pair of jump leads…never thought about the weight of all that back then ..in winter you added a snow shovel and a bag of sand to improve the grip🤣🤣
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Jazzik on March 21, 2023, 09:22:11 PM: Well... but that was in those 'good old days'... Although... good...? (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/frech/a096.gif)
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 22, 2023, 11:04:16 AM: I no longer try and carry everything I might need. At one time with a bit of mechanical knowledge carrying such an array of tools might have got you out of trouble with a few roadside breakdowns. I've even changed a head gasket in a layby (on a 1931 car)
But now I only have the typical diy emergency breakdown tool kit of a few cheapo quality socket sets, spanners, multi tip bits ,and a few other bibs and bobs. Enough to maybe investigate things, or loosen or tighten something. Plan B is breakdown cover,. Plan C ,if I really know I can fix it myself with the correct part or tool I might buy them local to the breakdown. Never had to so far but its an option.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: 5thcivic on March 22, 2023, 12:28:30 PM: What about the extra 100 kgm of driver, and maybe another for passenger? Even less % difference.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Jazzik on March 22, 2023, 12:53:34 PM: When I step on the scale, I see never more than 70 kg. For the other driver (and/or sometimes passenger) the needle stops at about 52 kg...
Maybe that's why the consumption of our Jazz is the way it is? :D
Or maybe also the effect of not carrying unnecessary weight and slightly increased tire pressure?
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 22, 2023, 12:57:31 PM: It's all down to personal preference. I prefer to top up when I get to just under half a tank.

If it costs me an extra 1 or 2 mpg then so be it.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: peteo48 on March 22, 2023, 03:01:19 PM: Quote from: Kremmen on March 22, 2023, 12:57:31 PM
It's all down to personal preference. I prefer to top up when I get to just under half a tank.

If it costs me an extra 1 or 2 mpg then so be it.

One of the reasons I didn't go electric - I get range anxiety in an ICE car hence my refuelling between one quarter and a third ;D

Down to 3 bars on the MK4 and my palms start sweating, my pulse rate rises and these symptoms disappear once I have filled the tank. Zen like calm is restored.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Jazzik on March 22, 2023, 04:10:59 PM: Quote from: peteo48 on March 22, 2023, 03:01:19 PM
I get range anxiety in an ICE car hence my refuelling between one quarter and a third ;D

Down to 3 bars on the MK4 and my palms start sweating, my pulse rate rises...

(https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/120/sony/336/face-with-thermometer_1f912.png)(https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/120/sony/336/stethoscope_1fa7a.png)
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a050.gif)
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Lord Voltermore on March 22, 2023, 04:26:41 PM: With my new tablets maybe I can risk another bar before refueling. ;D (The dog and duck maybe :P)

But I get where Peteo is coming from. When there were empty pumps and queues due to panic buying, filling the tank was almost a physical pleasure. :-*
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: Kremmen on March 22, 2023, 04:38:48 PM: That's part of the problem. You never know when terminals are going to be blocked by the eco nuts or other problems and fuel stations develop long queues and there you are on 1 or 2 bars with a week's commute ahead.

Been there, got the TShirt, etc.
Title: Re: Low fuel reading even when fuel is there
Post by: nowster on March 22, 2023, 10:01:22 PM: Quote from: Kremmen on March 22, 2023, 04:38:48 PM
That's part of the problem. You never know when terminals are going to be blocked by the eco nuts or other problems and fuel stations develop long queues and there you are on 1 or 2 bars with a week's commute ahead.

The big one was 2001. That one was the drivers themselves.