Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 693548 times)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #255 on: October 03, 2017, 07:21:13 AM »
culzean. I know you just don't like electric car and will never ever own one. For me the e-Golf is ideal. As I never go faster than 60 mph it doesn't matter a toss if it runs out of steam above that speed. 0-60 times mean sod all. As Top Gear once showed, a car that does 0-40 in 2 seconds and on to 60 in 10 accelerates much faster than a car that does 0-40 in 7 seconds and goes on to 60 in 10. For a manual transmission 0-60 times are measured using brutal gear changes and seldom seen by normal drivers. The e-Golf however has no gears hence no need for gear changes, brutal or otherwise. Which also explains why it runs out of acceleration above 60 mph. This is a function of the axle ratio.
Regarding range. The figures NEDC comes up with are probably just imagined. They give relative numbers between different vehicles tested in the same way. Nothing else. The figures I quoted were as experienced by Jonny Smith on "Fully Charged".
What I am saying is, when I am in a position to buy and run an electric car I will do. It may be an e-Golf, or a Leaf or even - if the gods smile on me - a Tesla. When the time comes I will have an EV.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 04:40:34 PM by RichardA »

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #256 on: October 03, 2017, 10:22:09 AM »


If you look on EV car forums they complain that NEDC figures for range are even less accurate than mpg figures claimed for ICE vehicles, and if you get near 80% of claimed range you are doing very well, and more variables with a battery to affect range. In tests I read on Tesla a decent run on motorway at 70 dropped the range from claimed 320 down to just over 200 miles, that has never happened to any ICE car I have driven.

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #257 on: October 03, 2017, 10:39:59 AM »
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #258 on: October 03, 2017, 10:54:00 AM »

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

Even though there are choices of economy modes it looks as though VW  have already limited the standard performance in the interests of battery range.  For the claimed 135PS power the performance is nowhere near what you should expect. I gave my Civic (with pretty much identical power)  performance as an example of what should be available. The fact that the eGolf is about 250kg heavier than Civic is a clue, but not the whole story.
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #259 on: October 03, 2017, 01:01:36 PM »
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.

That's a point - hiring a car - that is often missed. Many in the current EV community are early adopters and have a certain pioneering spirit. I, like you I suspect, have watched hours of YouTube footage on EVs and renewable energy generally. I've seen people fiddling about with Apps and bits of plastic in the pouring rain, having to get permission to use the service road and other inconveniences including actually running out. In a reply to a comment I'd made on one early adopter's YouTube channel about these ridiculous Apps he said that fiddling about in the rain was a "rite of passage."

A rite of passage I'm happy to let the early adopters get on with. A more balanced outlook comes from people like Michael Boxwell who has written a book about the Nissan Leaf. He says that if you drive more than 50 miles more than a few times a month AND if the EV is going to be your only car then they are not for you at this point. He described a long trip to Cornwall in an EV as being tedious and wearying.

But as you say, £110 road tax is 2 thirds the way towards a hire car for a week. If an EV can do 90% or more of your journeys then they become viable.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #260 on: October 03, 2017, 05:29:30 PM »
The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

The General figure for range on BEV is 3 to 4 miles per kw/h - with 3 being for normal driving and 4 for economy mode. Due to electric motor and transmission and inverter being same weight as engine in ICE and anywhere between 150 to 300 kg for battery, unless some serious weight reduction goes on (which BMW tried to do by using carbon fibre in i3 and i8) then range can only be improved by lighter more energy dense battery.

I believe that range is calculated at steady 50 to 55 mph, probably with everything electrical turned off.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 08:50:31 AM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #261 on: October 03, 2017, 08:29:46 PM »
I know Robert Llewellyn, when he had a Leaf before his Tesla, tried to get 100 miles out of his 24 kwh Leaf. This involved driving, on a fine day, at a constant 40 mph (I think he said). The NEDC figures are almost criminally deceptive but then we know that from claims for ICE cars in terms of mpg.

I thought a new system was imminent - seems to have gone quiet on that front.

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #262 on: October 04, 2017, 08:58:18 AM »
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #263 on: October 04, 2017, 10:42:49 AM »
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.

No range anxiety on this thread then. 

Best description I heard of EV battery was 'rubber bucket' which sums up the variables of battery temperature, ambient temperature, battery age etc.
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madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #264 on: October 04, 2017, 11:04:11 AM »
The trouble with EVs simply put is:
The most sensible place to use EVs is in cities. Charging in cities for many flat dwellers has huge issues.
Most people who try to walk and cycle tend to use cars in bad weather and winter. Range of EVs plummets in winter due to use of heating/wipers etc.
Electricity infrastructures - cables, switchgear and substations are designed for average domestic us of well under 30 Amps on average.  EVs need to be charged at as high a current as possible or recharging at under 30 Amps takes hours and hours..


Structural issues like the above are neither easy to fix nor cheap nor can they be done in a hurry.


peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #265 on: October 04, 2017, 11:26:59 AM »
Some good points by madasafish. The marketing people at Toyota have cottoned on to this in pushing their hybrid cars, the advert for the Yaris Hybrid sees it driving past an EV charge point covered in cobwebs. There's another item I picked up where they had recorded maximum test drives conducted in EV only mode so they can see that buyers who might well be concerned about air quality and/or climate change together with fuel economy can be turned away from full EV's at least until the joke charging network is improved and it is a joke.

guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #266 on: October 04, 2017, 12:07:17 PM »
When I started this particular post on the 12th July 2017, I never thought it would produce the amount of discussion it has.
Two points I would like to stir the pot with, when J Clakson tested some BMW highbrid??????? allegedly giving some fantastic mileage per gallon, he was very upset as I believe he found the car did little more to the gallon than the standard  equivalent BMW. Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scott are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
Perhaps this will get another few months of controversy.
I might be deaf I might be a miserable ol git but I can still indulge in a bit of mixing.
The Middle East and  the ICE manufacturers are never going down without a fight. Oh of course they will all pay lip service but when money comes into the equation only the wealthy( the large worldwide producers) will survive it's the law of averages. Whether it will be EV's or something else.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #267 on: October 04, 2017, 12:20:29 PM »
Just expanding on what auntyneddy says above, I sometimes watch YouTube videos by an Australian called John Cadogan. He doesn't mince his words and can be quite funny. He did a hilarious review of the Mitsubishi Plug in Hybrid and claimed that the official mpg figures were bent to the point of corruption. He made the very valid point that when it was not in EV mode it was spectacularly inefficient as it was lugging an internal combustion engine, an electric motor and a heavy battery around. Of course it was slightly unfair as, if used as they should be used, the petrol motor would only be used on longer trips.

I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #268 on: October 04, 2017, 12:31:07 PM »


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:02:24 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #269 on: October 04, 2017, 01:26:11 PM »
Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scot are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
I wouldn't trust Volkswagen as far as I could throw them, but the range was that achieved  by Jonny Smith of "Fully Charged", and he did say that after years of lying to us, VW finally appeared to be telling the truth regarding the real world range of the e-Golf.
I am not drawn to a hybrid. If you are going to have an ICE then why bother with the weight of a battery and electric motor too. I'd rather stick with a conventional car.
When I move over to the south side of Edinburgh I fancy an EV for the short trips around the city and to the shops. I'll have a drive and garage/workshop, I want to put PV's on the roof, and who knows, if funds permit, I may even go for a Powerwall.
However, between now and then, something better may come along. Honda may offer a Jazz EV. Or perhaps autonomous vehicles, you call up instead of own, may take over. Or I may even have to give up driving altogether! Who knows what the future may hold for us.

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