Author Topic: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.  (Read 28991 times)

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2021, 11:31:15 AM »

Don't think the author of that paper has any particular axe to grind,  he a is a technology correspondent.

Perhaps the owner of the newspaper does? :o

sparky Paul

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2021, 12:04:52 PM »
As with all these articles, you first have to examine the origin. I'm afraid fossil fuel interests are not going to release their stranglehold on the world without a fight.

Don't think the author of that paper has any particular axe to grind,  he a is a technology correspondent.

He may or may not, but the sources used look particularly one-sided. Look at Shellenberger for example, author of "Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All". He's a known proponent of nuclear power, and has been widely criticised by academic reviewers for using misleading and inaccurate claims to support his arguments.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-stories-michael-shellenberger-tells/

Quote
Troublingly, he seems more concerned with showing climate-denying conservatives clever new ways to own the libs than with convincing environmentalists of anything.

Just because there are bad practices in the solar power industry, and I don't doubt that there are, it doesn't make it all bad. Let's face it - the fossil fuel industry is hardly a bastion for environmental protection, is it?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 02:38:29 PM by sparky Paul »

John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2021, 01:34:53 PM »
And one of the Texas nuclear plants also tripped out because of the cold https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-tripped-at-0537-on-feb-15-2021/ .A

Our eqivalent scenario is more likely to be a heatwave when equipment trips because of inadequate cooling.
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John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2021, 08:30:23 AM »
Another renewable energy source: Geothermal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55885086 .
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JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2021, 10:48:27 AM »
Texas is an "oil state" and relies heavily on  natural gas.
It is their reliance on natural gas rather than on renewables which was responsible for most of the outages.
Systems are built to suit normal weather conditions. Parts of Canada and Alaska function at negative temperatures but a week of unseasonal tropical temperatures would probably cause disruption.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/natural-gas-power-storm/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2021, 11:23:19 AM »
Texas is an "oil state" and relies heavily on  natural gas.
It is their reliance on natural gas rather than on renewables which was responsible for most of the outages.
Systems are built to suit normal weather conditions. Parts of Canada and Alaska function at negative temperatures but a week of unseasonal tropical temperatures would probably cause disruption.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/natural-gas-power-storm/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

And then there is this.....

Problem with renewables because of their 'whim of nature' intermittency ( unreliability ) is that you end up building far more of them than you actually need,  just to try and get a decent output in the 'bad' times. Then the operators expect to be paid even when their windfarm/solar farm is not needed because of 'oversupply' in the good times.  All I can say is electricity prices have not finished rising yet ( and they have been rising since renewables became more common ).  But to the greenies high prices are a good thing as they hope that makes people use less, enter the electric car.. which needs a lot of electricity.

Seems hot weather as well as cold weather can create problems with renewables.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/18/california-rolling-blackouts-caused-green-energy-p/
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:31:46 AM by culzean »
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sparky Paul

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2021, 12:14:43 PM »
All I can say is electricity prices have not finished rising yet ( and they have been rising since renewables became more common ).

I think energy prices were rising long before renewables appeared on the horizon!  ;D

Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2021, 02:44:05 PM »
I have been paying an electricity bill for 50 years and I can guarantee, the price has been rising FOREVER.

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2021, 03:55:01 PM »
All I can say is electricity prices have not finished rising yet ( and they have been rising since renewables became more common ). 
What is going to be required is a mix of energy sources.
Some are going to be more expensive than others.
There is always going to be a tendency to go for the cheapest option but this can work out more expensive in the long term in terms of environmental damage or in having all your eggs in one basket in the event of natural disasters.
As alternative sources are developed and are scaled up they become cheaper and more competitive with conventional sources.

  But to the greenies high prices are a good thing as they hope that makes people use less, enter the electric car.. which needs a lot of electricity.

Using less energy would be a better solution than generating more and more .
There must be vast amounts of energy wasted through inefficient insulation, consumerism and needless travel.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 04:00:56 PM by JimSh »

Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2021, 04:16:42 PM »
Never mind the energy used, generating cryptocurrency. Argentina uses the same, I believe.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2021, 04:22:54 PM »
I have been paying an electricity bill for 50 years and I can guarantee, the price has been rising FOREVER.

Yup, price increases are a fact of life, but rise has been much steeper in last decade, in fact it has doubled in last 10 years. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2021, 06:35:56 PM »
I have been paying an electricity bill for 50 years and I can guarantee, the price has been rising FOREVER.

Yup, price increases are a fact of life, but rise has been much steeper in last decade, in fact it has doubled in last 10 years.

You should change supplier. Electricity prices have been up and down over that last 10 years, but the overall trend has been fairly benign - unlike the big rises during the 70s and mid 2000s when worldwide oil, gas and other fuel prices were going through the roof.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 06:41:52 PM by sparky Paul »

guest4871

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2021, 07:35:30 PM »
I follow this discussion and ask myself:

Is the plan to heat homes in the future using only electricity?

My electricity today costs 5 times my gas per kilowatt hour.

Without doing the calculation in detail, I guess my energy bills will go up by at least 3 times that which they are now if we stop using gas in homes.

Will people on low incomes simply be able to afford that? It is serious money.


John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2021, 08:46:14 PM »
I follow this discussion and ask myself:

Is the plan to heat homes in the future using only electricity?
The plan is that we use heat pumps which give several units of heat per unit of electricity used. Hybrid heat pumps such as this https://www.vaillant.co.uk/specifiers/products/arotherm-hybrid-air-source-heat-pump-53953.html#specification are an intermediate option and will use gas or electricity, whichever works out to be cheaper. Producing hydrogen with surplus renewable energy is also being trialled. This can then be used to replace gas.

The other part of the grand plan is to improve insulation to minimise heat losses. The government is offering money to help with the changes https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for-the-green-homes-grant-scheme .
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culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2021, 12:26:02 PM »
Article from Spectator

The hidden cost of Net Zero

8 March 2021, 11:38am



‘We cannot allow debt to keep rising’, the Chancellor said to Parliament last week, repeatedly emphasising the need to ‘level’ with the public about the size of the national debt. Strange then that just days later it was revealed that ministers have been doing the opposite when it comes to the costs of the fashionable cause of ‘Net Zero’. Instead government officials deliberately hid ‘more realistic’ estimates which showed Net Zero would cost billions more than publicised, while agreeing amongst themselves that the predicted costs were ‘highly uncertain’. These revelations came about after the Treasury was finally defeated in a two-year battle to prevent me seeing documents I’d requested under the Freedom of Information Act. I’d asked for the calculations behind their claim that the cost of decarbonising the UK economy was going to be around £1 trillion. In the event, after two years, they eventually handed over what was essentially a short memo, discussing two competing estimates of the cost, one from the Department for Business Enterprise and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the other from the Committee on Climate Change (CCC). The amateurishness of the Treasury analysis is extraordinary: a few figures are jotted down, as if on the back of an envelope, and a crude graph is sketched out, after which a picture to present to the public is decided on. But more importantly, the memo appears to show that the Treasury set out to deceive the public. The mandarins involved felt that the higher BEIS estimate was more credible than the lower figure from the CCC, but shamefully decided to publicise the CCC number anyway.This kind of behaviour by Whitehall officials has become all too common, but the public may not yet be aware of the extent of the deception regarding Net Zero. The two competing estimates were in the vicinity of £1 trillion pounds, give or a take a few hundred billion here or there. But a moment’s reflection shows that this cannot even be close to the true cost. For example, the Energy Technologies Institute estimatesthat retrofitting insulation to the UK housing stock will cost in excess of £2 trillion on its own. And you need to decarbonise transport, the power generation system, industry and agriculture too. At GWPF, where I work, analysts have been building up a more realistic picture of just how much you are going to be required to fork out, and we’ve already reached a total over £3 trillion – or more than £100,000 per household. By the time we are done, it may well be half as much again.Do you have £150,000 to spare? Coming in the wake of the pandemic, I’m pretty sure most people will not. Forcing taxpayers and consumers to spend sums like this seems the height of economic and social foolishness. To do so only to deliver a world in which you will not know from one moment to the next whether there will be any energy to heat your home or even to keep the lights on defies comprehension.Do politicians have any idea of where they are taking us? Or does their thinking on energy policy only extend to posturing and pandering to environmental pressure groups? They can’t keep on like this forever. Eventually, as the bills mount and the reality of energy rationing hits home, the public will turn on them. And this could be sooner than you think. BEIS hopes to clear the way for the grid to control appliances in homes by 2025. The next election could be a good one to lose.

Written byAndrew Montford
Andrew Montford is deputy director of the Global Warming Policy Forum.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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