Author Topic: RDMS and winter  (Read 17056 times)

Jazzik

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2021, 12:30:02 PM »
They do not have the same functionality. RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane. If you lift your hands off the wheel (just slightly) it will even steer you round bends. You can only do this for a few seconds before the car shouts at you.

I know.... after (still quite) a few seconds a red wheel with hands appears on the dashboard and than the noise...
But it's still fun to let LKAS do its job through a few bends, driver with hands up and mother-in-law in the passenger seat...:P
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 02:03:11 PM by Jazzik »
If nothing goes right, go left!

peteo48

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2021, 02:54:33 PM »
Is it that one is passive, one is (slightly) active?
My 2018 has lane warning, but it is just a warning, no steering input capability.

I am no luddite, but this stuff really is getting beyond a joke. I'll take as much passive safety as you like (ABS, airbags, stability control etc), as long as it isn't "intrusive" into the driving. Having to live with something which can give "false" interaction (rough road edges etc) and has to be temporarily disabled by menu selection each time just gets tedious.

Having come from the auto industry I often use a comparison with, for example, modern tech where there are continual updates and having to select menus and settings. If when you got into your car it asked you to select ignition timing, fuel enrichment, idle speed, voltage correction etc etc before you could start it, you'd be pretty disillusioned. In engine calibration the engineers did all that for you, just turn the key and drive. That's how consumer products should work, the techy stuff should be largely invisible. Once you start noticing it, then it is lacking.

Excellent post. I don't have your background but, for a while "labour saving" devices were the buzz words. Things designed to make life easier.

At some point the whole concept of user friendliness went out of the window and complexity became the name of the game as a new generation of tech wizards assumed a level of competence that huge swathes of the population simply do not have and will never have. A neighbour, a woman in her 70s but in no sense of the word senile, described trying to get in touch with our local GP surgery who have been using E Consult since the onset of the pandemic. She phoned the surgery up and was asked to do an E Consult, she refused, she was asked if her husband could do it and she said that he probably could but that wasn't the point.

An American writer, Dave Eggers, wrote about the digital divide at least 10 years ago now and some aspects of the new Jazz in which complexity is seen as a virtue are increasing this divide between the IT savvy and the rest of the population.

The tech absolutely should be in the background. The accursed RDMS should be capable of being disabled by a single flick of a switch even if it does default to "on" after you have stopped.

Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at Honda per se. All car manufacturers are guilty of this. My brother's BMW is actually causing him anxiety.

It's got to stop!

Expatman

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2021, 03:17:20 PM »
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.

ColinB

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2021, 03:17:58 PM »
RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane.

That's the bit that I don't understand (or maybe I'm not stating it clearly). Surely any system that keeps you central in a lane is preventing you leaving the road? That's what I mean by them having the same functionality, so I don't understand why they've engineered two different systems to do it.

However, I've never driven one so if those who have can detect differences I'll just accept that it needs personal experience to properly understand it.

peteo48

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2021, 03:43:09 PM »
I think the difference is there but I agree it's confusing.

Lane Keep Assist is all about white lines, especially on a motorway or similar and the default is off - it only works above 45 mph iirc and you switch it on.

The RDMS is similar but is not all about white lines, it seems designed to detect pavements and/or hedges or fences. This is where the issue kicks in - narrow country lane, oncoming vehicle, you pull in hard to the left, the system doesn't like this so attempts to "correct" you by nudging the car into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

I haven't driven down any country lanes but I have experienced the system trying to pull me away from parked cars (it judges I am too close - I am not) and into the lane occupied by moving traffic. It's especially noticeable where you have three lanes of traffic at a set of lights.

I have to say I am not even sure if it's always the RDMS or another system designed to stop you crashing into the vehicle in front. Just to say at this particular junction the bloody car is steering me into a lane with moving traffic and applying the brakes. All sorts of images appear in the instrument binnacle, white steering wheels, orange steering wheels one after the other.

It's bloody dangerous and diverts your attention away from driving and towards the noises, steering and brake inputs and symbols the car is deploying. Somebody is going to get seriously injured or worse from this nonsense and there will then be a good case for corporate manslaughter.

Needless to say I now switch it off before every trip. The days of jumping in the car, starting up and driving off are becoming a distant memory.

Thingy

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2021, 03:46:41 PM »
LKAS will only work where there are clear lane markings and is purely to stop you drifting in the lane.
RDMS works on all roads and is designed to stop leaving the road. They are quite different things.


shufty

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2021, 03:47:13 PM »
RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane.

That's the bit that I don't understand (or maybe I'm not stating it clearly). Surely any system that keeps you central in a lane is preventing you leaving the road? That's what I mean by them having the same functionality, so I don't understand why they've engineered two different systems to do it.

However, I've never driven one so if those who have can detect differences I'll just accept that it needs personal experience to properly understand it.

...If you imagine that you are in a dual control car. Someone is sat beside you with a duplicate steering wheel.
They are steering alongside and they keep you towards the middle of the lane you are in with micro wheel movements. This means you stay pretty much central in your lane without you having to do much other than touch the wheel occasionally.
Now imagine they have fallen asleep and you are moving the wheel yourself. You're not very good at it and go onto the white line marking the edge of your lane. Suddenly they wake up, realise you are out/on the edge of your lane and they steer you back in but then let you steer yourself again within your lane whilst they go back to sleep until needed again :D

richardfrost

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2021, 04:26:33 PM »
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.
There is no eventually about it. People are being killed by misusing the Tesla 'Autopilot'. If ever anything was misnamed, it is that feature.

peteo48

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2021, 05:05:25 PM »
Yes - people have died as Richard suggests.

On Lane Keep Assist I can see value in this on the motorway as it only intervenes if you are straying out of lane - people do get dozy and this is a useful safety measure.

The other 2 systems prevent the driver from using his or her judgement and the "interventions" are so intrusive they can cause alarm and you will lose concentration. I can see that they are designed to stop people mounting the kerb and killing pedestrians or even slow motion collisions but they intrude when no danger is present - this is the problem and also intrude in a way that puts you in danger (avoiding the hedge but steering you into the path of an oncoming vehicle on a narrow lane).

I wonder if any research has been done to establish if these mandatory systems have actually saved any lives.

Thingy

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2021, 05:16:01 PM »
I only drive on narrow lanes when holiday. It does activate when close to the edge but have not found the effect so strong as to steer you into an oncoming vehicle ( though I have not been in this situation). However, next time I am on such a road I will turn RDMS off.

Jazzik

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2021, 06:00:17 PM »
If you keep your hands (firmly) on the wheel, because you know what's coming, you for sure win with RDMS by knock-out in the first round!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 09:14:55 PM by Jazzik »
If nothing goes right, go left!

sportse

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2021, 06:06:16 PM »
I drive regularly on normal width country roads but had to resort to switching off RDMS every drive now.

I’ve also been on holiday to Hampshire and driven the narrow and single track country roads too. The last time I was there I didn’t know about disabling the system and it was an unpleasant drive having to hold a death grip on the wheel to fight the car when it thought you were too far left to what it thought you should be.

Contrast that to a more recent trip with RDMS disabled, no problems at all on the same roads and much more relaxing.

I believe manufacturers keep adding this tech because it gets them points towards a 5 star ‘safety’ rating.

It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.

Mellorshark

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2021, 06:30:25 PM »
It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.
How do you know that?

culzean

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2021, 06:33:25 PM »
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.
There is no eventually about it. People are being killed by misusing the Tesla 'Autopilot'. If ever anything was misnamed, it is that feature.

Tesla should have called it 'fancy cruise control' but Musk is a showman like Thomas Edison was, and would never miss a chance to hype something up.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sportse

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Re: RDMS and winter
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2021, 07:00:50 PM »
It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.
How do you know that?

One of the main reasons was only a low rating for the autonomous emergency braking system:

Dacia to keep car prices low by avoiding "useless" features
Product boss says customers don't yet want to pay for complex electronic driver aids and other equipment


“At Dacia, we are not chasing Euro NCAP stars – it’s not our philosophy," she said. “We are very much preoccupied by always increasing safety for the passengers on board; our cars always have passenger safety improved."

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-keep-car-prices-low-avoiding-useless-features

I'd looked at Dacia some time ago, and would have considered a Duster if they had automatics back then.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 07:04:26 PM by sportse »

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