Author Topic: Illumination Packs  (Read 5667 times)

aphybrid

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Illumination Packs
« on: October 10, 2021, 11:17:18 AM »
These can be quite a nice enhancement to a car but the cost seems a bit much.
Does anyone know if all the connections exist in the basic cars to allow some DIY of fitmant or possible use of non OEM kit?

sportse

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2021, 11:27:52 AM »
I had the rear cargo LED illumination option fitted - I think it was just a plug in new light unit.

I'm not sure about the front ones though, but I've found the standard illumination to be very good in the Jazz.

Karoq

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 10:16:24 AM »
All modern cars use an electrical system called 'CANBUS'. (Don't ask how ir works, I haven't a clue, but I'm sure someone here will explain)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus
Do any DIY fiddling AT YOUR PERIL! You are almost guaranteed to b*gger the system.
This is why it is so difficult to fit a tow bar to anything. The days of connecting trailer electrics to the cars wiring loom using 'Scotchlocks' are long gone!
Dip Mech Eng (automotive)

nowster

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 10:31:43 AM »
All modern cars use an electrical system called 'CANBUS'. (Don't ask how ir works, I haven't a clue, but I'm sure someone here will explain)

It's a two wire signalling system which runs at about 500kbps in its most basic form. I have worked with it.

Often a vehicle has several CANBUS networks for different functions. For example, the infotainment system will be on a different network to the engine control systems, with a gateway box connecting them. If this wasn't the case, a rogue infotainment system could jam the network or send unwelcome commands to other components. (Yes, this has happened.)

culzean

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 12:01:45 PM »
Up until MK2 ( GE ) Honda did not use CANBUS, things are still individually wired, do not know about later models.  In a CANBUS system every sensor and everything that needs switching is a 'node' and has an address that the master controller can speak to.  It simplifies the wiring ( in the normal German way of simplifying stuff LOL )  as you now only need two power cables to each device, which also carry signals,   but makes 'peripherals' expensive to replace because they now have to have electronic bits in them...   The Japanese seem to work on 'evolution' rather than 'revolution' ( if it ain't broke - don't fix it ) - the canbus system can also measure the power being used by each device,  and if a device like a bulb fails and the current drops it will signal a fault. The CANBUS friendly LED bulbs  you see advertised are needed because an LED draws a fraction of the current that a filament bulb does and would signal a fault, the CANBUS LED has to have a resistor in parallel with the LED to make it draw more current to satisfy the CANBUS system that the bulb has not failed.  My brother needed to replace the interior cabin light bulb on his Skoda, could not just replace the bulb, had to buy a new plug-in unit containing a bulb.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 12:06:07 PM by culzean »
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nowster

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 01:15:12 PM »
It simplifies the wiring ( in the normal German way of simplifying stuff LOL )  as you now only need two power cables to each device, which also carry signals...

Actually, you can't draw power from the bus. There are two signal cables (it's a quasi-differential pair) as well as the usual battery and ground.

The wires both float at about 2.5V when inactive (a "1"). When active (a "0") one is raised to 3.5V and the other dropped to 1.5V. The receiver looks at the difference in voltage between the wires. Less than 0.5V is a "1" and more than that is a "0".

Neil Ives

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2021, 02:01:28 PM »
Actually, you can't draw power from the bus. There are two signal cables (it's a quasi-differential pair) as well as the usual battery and ground.
You appear to have answered something I was wondering. There are wires carrying proper current as well as the low current signalling wires?
Neil Ives

shufty

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2021, 02:17:15 PM »
...Ordered the pack but not seen it yet to tell what or how it's actually fitted. I assumed out of all the packs available it would be one of the harder ones to self fit.

culzean

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2021, 02:17:24 PM »
You appear to have answered something I was wondering. There are wires carrying proper current as well as the low current signalling wires?

You can put load current and signals through same pair of cables, happens all the time in industry,  ASi bus was an industrial system flat twin cable carrying both 24VDC power and signals, the signals can easily be filtered out from the DC of the BUSS.  Also those homeplug ethernet devices carry both 230volts AC and the ethernet signal over the twin and earth cable of your house or business using the live and neutral conductors.... easy peasy

The one hangup in very high speed networks seems to be that using only the power cables for both signal and data may result in very slight delays in signals.  Having said that the Gigabit powerline adaptors can handle 1000Mbps and some up to 1200Mbps.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224101282_Assessment_of_CAN_performance_for_Powerline_Communications_in_dc_differential_buses
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 03:02:08 PM by culzean »
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stiggysawdust

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 09:31:29 PM »
I had the rear cargo LED illumination option fitted - I think it was just a plug in new light unit.

I'm not sure about the front ones though, but I've found the standard illumination to be very good in the Jazz.

I just swopped the capless bulb in the rear cargo for a much brighter capless led that I had spare from doing the same with my HRV 6 years ago. Cost around £2,00 for two. The light fitting appears to be exactly the same in each car.
2020 Honda Jazz 1.5 i-MMD Hybrid EX Midnight Moonbeam Blue Metallic

stiggysawdust

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 09:39:45 PM »
These can be quite a nice enhancement to a car but the cost seems a bit much.
Does anyone know if all the connections exist in the basic cars to allow some DIY of fitmant or possible use of non OEM kit?

If I remember correctly the list price was something like £850, but I was charged around £300.
The lighting in the footwells, door pockets and centre console is quite low  level but the illuminated JAZZ scuff plates on the front sills look really good.
2020 Honda Jazz 1.5 i-MMD Hybrid EX Midnight Moonbeam Blue Metallic

nowster

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 10:00:20 PM »
You appear to have answered something I was wondering. There are wires carrying proper current as well as the low current signalling wires?

You can put load current and signals through same pair of cables, happens all the time in industry,  ASi bus was an industrial system flat twin cable carrying both 24VDC power and signals, the signals can easily be filtered out from the DC of the BUSS.  Also those homeplug ethernet devices carry both 230volts AC and the ethernet signal over the twin and earth cable of your house or business using the live and neutral conductors.... easy peasy

Absolutely not. CAN bus does not carry any power on the same wires as the signals. Both idle at 2.5V at high impedance. One (CANH) is pulled up to 4.5v to become active and the other (CANL) is pulled down to 1.5V to become active. Battery power at a nominal 13.6V has to come by some other means than the two signal wires. Often there are just four wires in the harness: BAT, CANH, CANL, Ground. I have helped design and troubleshoot automotive infotainment kit and needed to know these things.

And Homeplug Ethernet signals using carrier frequencies between the neutral and earth pins. That's how it's able to cross phases in three phase installations.

You can supply power in differential circuits using just three wires (eg. phantom power to microphones).

Kremmen

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2021, 04:51:34 AM »
I just swopped the capless bulb in the rear cargo for a much brighter capless led that I had spare from doing the same with my HRV 6 years ago. Cost around £2,00 for two. The light fitting appears to be exactly the same in each car.

I did wonder about the dealer fit LED unit at £50 v just swapping bulbs.
Let's be careful out there !

aphybrid

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2021, 07:50:07 AM »
I asked because in Fiesta just sold I found wired connections for footwells and just bought the bulb holders to which I fitted red LEDs instead of the normal capless type. Similar change on the ford boot light with no problems. I think Fiesta has CANBUS - will look to see if same can be done in Crosstar - smallest change possible?
My ignorance of car electrics has been reduced significantly by all of responses, thanks to all again.

Kremmen

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Re: Illumination Packs
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 08:35:24 AM »
As far as illumination packs are concerned I did find the footwell lights useful on my IS200 to see what I was doing when vacuuming the carpets in the garage :)

Not so much of an issue now because I've fitted 2 x 5' twin LED battens so the garage lights up far better than the old fluorescents.
Let's be careful out there !

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