Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: guest9814 on October 15, 2021, 10:07:03 AM

Title: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 15, 2021, 10:07:03 AM: If recently changed fuel type and have difference in fuel consumption comment please.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 15, 2021, 11:04:06 AM: I can't comment because I got mine just as the switch to E10 was implemented.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Jeff15 on October 15, 2021, 11:34:21 AM: I just use what comes out of the unleaded pump, I don't have a sporty engine so any more expensive fuel would be pointless.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Jazzik on October 15, 2021, 12:21:01 PM: Here in Poland it is (still) simple: Euro 95 and 98 are both E5. So I fill the tank with Euro 95 E5. Preferably at a gas station with a reasonable (read low) price.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: sportse on October 15, 2021, 02:01:52 PM: Apart from the tank of fuel my car was delivered with, it's only had Shell V-Power E5 99.

I've always used V power, either petrol or diesel in cars I've owned for many years.

When I had a diesel it was hard to find fresh V-Power, as they didn't seem to sell much apart from on the motorway. Pulling away from a non-motorway station it was like you had switched on eco mode!

V Power petrol seems to be fresher, and will be more so in future as it is the only E5 sold at Shell stations now.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on October 16, 2021, 09:13:58 AM: I just go with the pump - was e5 - now e10 (e5 is more expensive) get about 3/4 mpg more on several fill ups. usually Tesco.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 16, 2021, 09:50:37 AM: I'm sure if you did the maths, E5 cost and MPG v E10 cost and MPG I'll bet E10 is more cost effective.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: IanG on October 16, 2021, 10:06:24 AM: I’ve tended to use E5, now E10 95RON petrol, either from Tesco or local Esso station.
I haven’t noticed any difference in fuel consumption between E5 and E10.
I’m planning to fill a tank with RON98 petrol, to determine if economy and/or performance improves, although suspect performance will largely be the same due to the predominantly electric motor drive of the hybrid system.
I have noticed swifter pick up when the eco mode is off, a feeling that the accelerator response is dulled whilst in eco mode, which I experimented with in urban environments, when the car moves away from standstill frequently. I haven’t run the car out of eco mode for long periods, so will likely run a tank of E10 95RON without eco mode, then compare to a tank of E5 99RON in and out of ECO mode. I’m driving extensively on motorways several times a week, with urban parts of journey at either end. I stick to 70mph on motorways, although for many stretches this is reduced to 60/50/40 variable speed limit with periods of stop/start congestion.
The car fuel consumption reading, if this is to believed, rarely drops below 60 mpg and am averaging mid 60s mpg, which I feel is excellent for an automatic car with fairly brisk acceleration. Whilst driving small SUV manual hire cars, such as Renault Captur and Hyundai Kona, I’ve averaged mid 40s mpg, with more lethargic engines. A Skoda Octavia auto 150PS petrol averaged around 40 and had decent acceleration, although a much larger car and very spacious seating and boot space. I was impressed with a Vauxhall Crossland, 130PS manual, much more spacious than the Captur and Kona, both in rear seat width/legroom and boot, with a lively engine, yet similar reported fuel economy.
I find the Jazz a good balance between economy, space and performance and it’s narrower width is very relaxing whilst driving in urban environments, passing rows of parked cars with oncoming traffic and ease of parking, due to shorter length and good visibility. Although a narrower width, the passenger space doesn’t feel constrained, although a centre rear passenger would probably be snug but I’m not likely carry five in the car.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: sportse on October 16, 2021, 10:22:21 AM: I've found that the 99RON fuel allows a little bit more torque at lower rpm in various cars I've driven before.

In the Jazz this should maybe translate to having the petrol generator run at lower revs to provide the electricity needed.

(I also looked at Vauxhall Crossland before buying the Jazz - I've driven them for a few weeks as loan cars. The puretech 130hp engine combined with the 8 speed automatic is a great combination used in various cars. MPG I've found was low forties, the same as my Toyota Auris hybrid used to get.)
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 16, 2021, 11:05:08 AM: I've no idea about performance gains or losses as I tend to drive like I've got a boot full of eggs.

That probably comes from driving a double deck bus with standing passengers in London.

Easy does it :)
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: peteo48 on October 16, 2021, 12:35:38 PM: My completely unscientific approach in terms of what grade of fuel to use in the hybrid Jazz is that, by definition, given the assistance from the electric motor, the engine will be less stressed so any benefits of higher grade fuel (better torque etc) will be less so I've decided to stick with E10.

I speak as someone who has been susceptible to the marketing hype around premium/super fuels.

I drive with industrial quantities of eggs on board as well ;D
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 16, 2021, 01:37:07 PM: I posted this on Civinfo in 2008 :

Quote
Which? magazine have been at it again and this month it's petrol.

They have run a Focus and Golf with various fuels for a while under controlled conditions and have posted the results.

As expected, by me, there is hardly any difference between all the fuels, maybe a mile per gallon. The Shell 99 did produce the best bhp figure though:

Esso 95 RON - 33.7 mpg - 81.5 bhp
Tesco 95 RON - 34.1 mpg - 82.5 bhp
Tesco 99 RON - 34.5 mpg - 82 bhp
Shell 95 RON - 34.0 mpg - 82 bhp
Shell 99 RON - 34.3 mpg - 84.4 bhp

The comical bit I noticed is that when they tested each fuel for it's actual RON the Tesco 95 actually tested at 97 !

Also, both cars performed better on 95 RON than the Tesco 99 RON !

and I posted this over there in July 2009 :

Quote
I've tried BP Ultimate Super Unleaded (97RON), Tesco High Octane 99RON), normal BP Ultimate (95RON) and normal Tesco unleaded (95RON).

To make the test more realistic, in my case (200 miles a week), I needed to use each for a month to ensure that on the last week I was still not running a cocktail of petrols.

and the results in my 1.8 i-shift = ........................

.............not a blind bit of difference with my mpg staying constant throughout, and no noticeable change in engine smoothness or performance !
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 16, 2021, 02:48:37 PM: Quote from: sportse on October 16, 2021, 10:22:21 AM
I've found that the 99RON fuel allows a little bit more torque at lower rpm in various cars I've driven before.

In the Jazz this should maybe translate to having the petrol generator run at lower revs to provide the electricity needed.

(I also looked at Vauxhall Crossland before buying the Jazz - I've driven them for a few weeks as loan cars. The puretech 130hp engine combined with the 8 speed automatic is a great combination used in various cars. MPG I've found was low forties, the same as my Toyota Auris hybrid used to get.)
Not on lower RPM but maybe for shorter periods of time to generate same amount of electricity.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Jazzik on October 16, 2021, 03:08:14 PM: I think I already mentioned it earlier: a difference of 1 Beaufort (headwind or tailwind) gives more difference in consumption than RON 95, RON 98 or RON 99, E5 or E10.

https://chandanlahiri.com/the-beaufort-scale/

However: RON 95 or 99 for sure DOES make a difference: £, €, $.... :(
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 16, 2021, 03:50:30 PM: Lets see
If you drive car with consumption 3.3l/100 km using fuel that cost 1.68 euros for 1 litre
And compare with same car that have consumption 2.6l /100km using fuel that cost 1.83 euros for 1 litre
Which driver wins ?
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Jazzik on October 16, 2021, 03:57:37 PM: Quote from: Roman on October 16, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
Which driver wins ?

The driver who passes the finish line first? ;D
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 16, 2021, 04:46:33 PM: Wrong answer
The winer is one that leave car on parking and will use bycicle.
So you win automaticaly :P
Actualy difference not too big - only 6 euro per 1000 km.....
If that average of 2.6l/100km will last for 1000km
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 22, 2021, 04:50:09 PM: Quote from: sportse on October 15, 2021, 02:01:52 PM
Apart from the tank of fuel my car was delivered with, it's only had Shell V-Power E5 99.

I've always used V power, either petrol or diesel in cars I've owned for many years.

When I had a diesel it was hard to find fresh V-Power, as they didn't seem to sell much apart from on the motorway. Pulling away from a non-motorway station it was like you had switched on eco mode!

V Power petrol seems to be fresher, and will be more so in future as it is the only E5 sold at Shell stations now.
Intresting
Whats MPG do you have using shell v-power ?
And does that MPG or performance differs from first tank with 95 RON gasoline ?
Title: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: sportse on October 22, 2021, 07:55:24 PM: Quote from: Roman on October 22, 2021, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: sportse on October 15, 2021, 02:01:52 PM
Apart from the tank of fuel my car was delivered with, it's only had Shell V-Power E5 99.

I've always used V power, either petrol or diesel in cars I've owned for many years.

When I had a diesel it was hard to find fresh V-Power, as they didn't seem to sell much apart from on the motorway. Pulling away from a non-motorway station it was like you had switched on eco mode!

V Power petrol seems to be fresher, and will be more so in future as it is the only E5 sold at Shell stations now.
Intresting
Whats MPG do you have using shell v-power ?
And does that MPG or performance differs from first tank with 95 RON gasoline ?

My mpg is mainly a regular 52, consistent from tank to tank, as most of my driving is at 70mph on motorways and A roads with a fair amount of hills. (This compares to long term averages of 47mpg in a Volvo V40 diesel and 44mpg in a Toyota Auris hybrid at the same speeds so pretty good. )

However, as soon as my speed drops below 70mph the mpg shoots up.

Last week I did 300 miles, about 1/3 at 70mph & 1/3 in 50mph roadworks and the rest in the country maybe 40/50mph. Tank average was 62mpg for the whole trip.

If I didn't do the 70mph sections I would have been up to 67mpg I'd reckon. I can achieve that on country driving below 50/60mph maximum.

With the first tank the car only started with 8 miles on it, so I can't really compare performance or mpg as I was babying the car to run it in.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 23, 2021, 04:24:38 AM: I do the same journey weekly.

30 miles each way, most 50mph motorway, some 60mph motorway, then 60 mph dual csrriageway finishing up with urban.

When the weather was warm and the heating didn't kick in and it was lighter I could show almost 70mpg, best was 73mpg. Now the heater kicks in and it's headlights for about half the journey it's averaging about 63mpg.

At 60 miles a week, or a fortnight if I miss a journey, I don't fill up that often but if I remember I'll but some E5 in next time and see what gives.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: peteo48 on October 23, 2021, 11:44:56 AM: My Mk4 is showing around 53 mpg. Still based on lots of short journeys. That may not seem that good but the MK3 was showing 43 to 44 mpg in similar driving patterns. That's the computer so I reckon 40 for the Mk3 and 49/50 for the Mk4 in real money.

I'll take an improvement of circa 10 mpg. I use "B" mode most of the time but I always have the Climate Control set to 21 degrees - I rarely turn it off. As it gets colder I'm going to see how the heated seats and steering wheel work. My Nissan Leaf pal uses the heated seats in his car a lot and cranks the Climate Control right down and gets a measurable increase in range.

I know prices are high but I'm tempted to use E5 from here on in (I've changed my mind on that). My low mileage means fuel costs are not a massive issue for me.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: PaulC on October 23, 2021, 08:30:09 PM: Strange - in New Zealand the Honda Jazz Hybrid (e:HEV) specified fuel is: "Fuel Type (Octane Rating): 91"
This is lower in octane compared to what is used in UK and Europe.
The UK is "Unleaded (95)"
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: sportse on October 23, 2021, 09:35:39 PM: Quote from: PaulC on October 23, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Strange - in New Zealand the Honda Jazz Hybrid (e:HEV) specified fuel is: "Fuel Type (Octane Rating): 91"
This is lower in octane compared to what is used in UK and Europe.
The UK is "Unleaded (95)"

The octane ratings don't seem to be the same around the world unfortunately, there seems to be different versions of what they consider octane.

eg 95 UK is 91 US , 98 UK is 93.5 US
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 23, 2021, 09:45:38 PM: Quote from: sportse on October 23, 2021, 09:35:39 PM
Quote from: PaulC on October 23, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Strange - in New Zealand the Honda Jazz Hybrid (e:HEV) specified fuel is: "Fuel Type (Octane Rating): 91"
This is lower in octane compared to what is used in UK and Europe.
The UK is "Unleaded (95)"

The octane ratings don't seem to be the same around the world unfortunately, there seems to be different versions of what they consider octane.

eg 95 UK is 91 US , 98 UK is 93.5 US
New Zealand using RON rating
Our enпine can run on 91 RON but prolonged use can damage engine
I using now 95 RON but maybe bad quality because sometimes i hearing strange noise from running ICE but that not knoking maybe pops into the intake manifold...
When i checked with Honda scanner tool i seen logged misfires - 457 times, first fillup by dealer was with bad gasoline
as this pups i heared frequently when get new car with full tank of fuel.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: embee on October 24, 2021, 12:31:53 AM: Quote from: sportse on October 23, 2021, 09:35:39 PM
The octane ratings don't seem to be the same around the world unfortunately, there seems to be different versions of what they consider octane.

eg 95 UK is 91 US , 98 UK is 93.5 US
In the UK we refer to RON
USA refers to "pump" which is (RON+MON)/2

RON = research octane number
MON = motor octane number

They are fuel characteristics determined in a test engine running at different speeds/loads/temperatures and indicate how the fuel behaves under different conditions. MON is typically 8 numbers lower than RON for a given fuel, so pump is typically 4 numbers lower than RON, hence 95RON would be typically 91 (R+M)/2 , same stuff just different measures.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Lord Voltermore on October 25, 2021, 12:10:11 PM: 100% ethanol is 33% less fuel efficient than 100% petrol Yet its still regarded as better environmentally despite consuming 33 % more fuel by volume. At least if the ethanol comes from waste biomass .I'm less happy about the USA using good farmland to grow crops just for fuel.

So in theory (and possibly oversimplifying the maths) E10 being 10% ethanol will consume 3.3 % more fuel by volume than 100% petrol but only 1.65 % more fuel than the E5 most of us used before. At an average of 60 mpg thats 2 mpg less than petrol and 1 mpg less than E5.

Todays price at my local BP garage 97 ron 'ultimate ' petrol is about 10% more expensive than E10 (£1.57 vs £ 1.43) I'd be gutted if I had car that couldnt tolerate E10.

It does not make economic sense to pay 10% extra to gain just 3.3 % improvement in fuel consumption. Especially as there is no environmental advantage in using a bit less of the old stuff.

Its true that some conventional cars run better on 97/98 ron petrol. Better torque etc. And some premium fuels contain extra additives that help clean fuel injectors clean. But our engines are designed for fuel efficiency, not torque. The torque comes from the electric motor.

I will be using E10.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: peteo48 on October 25, 2021, 12:55:20 PM: That sounds very convincing Lord Voltermore. I've changed my mind again!
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: embee on October 25, 2021, 01:04:02 PM: Quote from: Lord Voltermore on October 25, 2021, 12:10:11 PM
100% ethanol is 33% less fuel efficient than 100% petrol .......
I take your point.

It has a lower calorific value, but that isn't the same as efficiency. The intention of using ethanol in higher concentration is to make it from renewable (short term) sources which would make it effectively carbon neutral (sugar beet/cane/grain etc), so reducing the CO2 from non-renewables (short term, i.e. oil). There is no intent for you to use less volume of fuel, or even less mass (which is probably more relevant, for example diesel is more dense than petrol so you get more "stuff" and thus calories, roughly 10% more, in your litre which is partly why you get better mpg with diesel, though the engine is also more thermally efficient)
E10 is about the maximum concentration which can readily be used in the vast majority of the existing general petrol/gasoline fleet without modification.

The real world issues of where the ethanol comes from and the effect on the environment is a whole other can of worms.

The pricing of it is a political issue to a large extent. Should E10 cost less than E5 because of the lower calorific value? I don't have an answer to that. I don't know what the commercial wholesale price of ethanol is relative to petrol/gasoline.

Should electricity used for charging EVs be subject to road fuel duty and 20% VAT due to coming from a gas fired power station and thus responsible for substantial CO2 emissions? Who would be a Chancellor these days?

Interestingly I took my Suzuki Cappuccino for MOT recently. It has always just scraped through the fast idle CO level, mainly as a result of being essentially a Japanese emission spec car from the 1990s even though it was homologated for the UK. Chatting to my MOT man, whom I have known for years, he commented that there are discussion among the MOT testers that quite a few modern cars are failing the CO test for no apparent reason when on E10, and they are advising the owners to fill up with E5 and re-submit the cars which are then passing. It's possible that the original factory calibration coinciding with the MOT test condition point was such that the extra fuel trim required to take the E10 back to stoichiometric is making it bias just a touch too far rich and exceeding the CO value, it all depends on steps and ramps for the feedback cycling. If it is base calibration effects then it becomes difficult to do much about it. He suspects there may have to be some change in the standards to accommodate this effect if it proves relatively widespread, there may be certain models which are identified as a problem.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Lord Voltermore on October 25, 2021, 03:39:32 PM: I take your point. I should have said calorific value.

And your problem with the Cappuccino has helped me understand why some older cars cant meet emissions on E10 They're unable to adjust to the E10 Stoichiometric ratio of 14.08:1 without running too rich . That's probably why some owners are reporting a 10 % increase in fuel consumption with E10.

Hopefully this shouldn't happen with our engines .
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: embee on October 25, 2021, 04:53:31 PM: The Cappuccino actually has a separate "CO trim" resistor in the wiring harness under the bonnet. There are 12 different values listed in the parts manual. You set the duty cycle to a given value (can't remember off the top of my head, 55% or something) by selecting the most appropriate resistor. I added a secondary resistor in parallel to the original to drop the value slightly to centre mine many years ago. As said, it is a relatively primitive speed/density fuel injection system dating from the early 1990s, the trim resistor allowed for easy correction of the overall base map to suit the tolerances of the components in any given vehicle.
Modern systems don't generally need such devices.

Maybe it is time I repeated the exercise, perhaps if I do it at the fast idle rpm it might give it a bit more margin on the MOT, though my MOT man always "searches" round within the permitted rpm envelope to find a sweet spot. Unless something is actually amiss it'll always get a pass.

The stoich A/F ratio needs to be treated with caution. E0 gasoline/petrol is nominally taken as 14.7:1 typically, E5 will be nearer 14.4:1, E10 as you say more like 14.1:1. The change from E5 to E10 is actually minor, but the cumulative effect of going from E0 (which older cars may have been calibrated with) to E10 might be significant, though it is only 4 or 5% of the original nominal value, and 2 or 3% change from E5, and ought to be within a usual trim range. If it is outside the trim range then the car will generally run leaner than stoich so CO should normally be expected to be lower (NOx higher), though feedback characteristics can obscure such things.

The vast majority of vehicles ought to be perfectly OK, and none should suffer 10% increase in fuel consumption. If that is observed then something else is going on.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 25, 2021, 07:05:15 PM: From 70km/h to 130km/h our engine torque important because engine on this speeds used directly.
And when ice working as generator torque also important, when I recorded in town with car scanner I seen that when ICE run it pushing 5kw of power to move car and another 10-15 kw to charge HV battery so in total load is 20kw and this on flat road and with speed 40km/h
To spin generator with such load not needed torque ?
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kenneve on October 25, 2021, 09:49:29 PM: At 75% efficiency, 20kw is equal to less than 1/2 of the available engine power, so it’s not working particularly hard.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: R2D3 on October 26, 2021, 02:26:37 PM: I've owned an MX-5 and BMW X1. For both I was advised not to use V-Power fuel as it would just be a waste of money. Any possible improvement in MPG would be over shadowed by the extra cost of the fuel. When I did try a tank of V-power in the MX-5 there was no noticeable improvement in performance... but then again I never pushed it. Another reason not to use premium fuel.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: Kremmen on October 26, 2021, 02:56:54 PM: I agree.

If your engine is optimised for 95 RON, which ours are, then anything else is normally a waste and any perceived mprovement is a placebo effect.
Title: Re: Fuel that we use in our Jazz
Post by: guest9814 on October 26, 2021, 08:18:39 PM: Quote from: Kremmen on October 26, 2021, 02:56:54 PM
I agree.

If your engine is optimised for 95 RON, which ours are, then anything else is normally a waste and any perceived mprovement is a placebo effect.
Maybe i wrongly understand printed in owner manual words - use 95 RON minimum
I understand this as advice not to use fuel with octan rating lower then 95 RON
I currently burning mixture of '95' and 98 RON (30l 95 RON and 10l 98 RON) and i see better fuel economy, for 288 km average fuel economy stay 3.0-3.1l/100km (before mixing i not able to get average below 3.3l/100km) and car computer calculated that with this fuel consumption i still can get 852km to empty.
Maybe i can see better fuel economy because used 95 RON gasoline has this rating only printed on pump and in reality much lower then 95, and by adding 98 RON to this crap i simple get normal minimum recomended fuel that not compromise engine performance.