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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: sportse on October 11, 2021, 08:12:55 AM

Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 11, 2021, 08:12:55 AM
I found today that the RDMS switched off as it said the windscreen wasn’t clear.

It was clear, but perhaps the area over the camera was cold and still misting up on the outside/inside?

I was expecting it to switch itself back on after a while, but it looks like you have to manually do this.

Later in the journey I pushed the safety button and was able to switch it back on.

Have people had similar through last winter?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2021, 09:02:31 AM
I found today that the RDMS switched off as it said the windscreen wasn’t clear.

It was clear, but perhaps the area over the camera was cold and still misting up on the outside/inside?

I was expecting it to switch itself back on after a while, but it looks like you have to manually do this.

Later in the journey I pushed the safety button and was able to switch it back on.

Have people had similar through last winter?

Thank goodness my eyes do not switch off when windscreen mists up.....  these 'safety' features seem flaky to say the least.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 11, 2021, 09:03:16 AM
I found today that the RDMS switched off as it said the windscreen wasn’t clear.

It was clear, but perhaps the area over the camera was cold and still misting up on the outside/inside?

Something I've had in my Mk3 (only a couple of times in 6 years of ownership) in certain cold/damp conditions is condensation inside the sensor pod. The screen itself is clear both inside and outside, but when you look into the pod from the outside you can see condensation in front of the camera. On the Mk 3 it affects things like the auto-dipping lights and maybe other things as well. There's supposed to be a dashboard warning if these systems aren't functioning, but I've never seen it. It clears itself as the car warms up and the water finds it's way out through the tiny drain hole at the bottom of the pod.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: richardfrost on October 11, 2021, 09:04:17 AM
Maybe this is the way to switch off the pesky RDBMS. A bit of gaffer tape over the camera.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jeff15 on October 11, 2021, 09:10:40 AM
What is the RDMS...?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2021, 09:25:59 AM
What is the RDMS...?

Road departure mitigation system, uses the camera to pick up white lines ( and other irregularities in the road it seems ) - least said the better, especially given the state of English roads. ( England seems to be the poor relation to Scotland and Wales when it comes to decent roads ).
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 11, 2021, 09:37:48 AM
What is the RDMS...?
https://www.hondainfocenter.com/2020/CR-V/Feature-Guide/Safety-Features/Road-Departure-Mitigation-System-RDM/
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jeff15 on October 11, 2021, 12:16:10 PM
Ah, right, I understand now and I must say it's blxxdy nuisance......
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 11, 2021, 01:08:14 PM
I turn RDMS off every journey start.

It picks up too many other road surface blemishes and wobbles the steering wheel.

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: JJazz on October 11, 2021, 01:39:28 PM
I have RDMD set to Delayed rather than Early or Normal. Is this best setting?.

I don’t see these options in 5. They belong to another Jazz? - see below

Models with Display Audio
1. Press the HOME button, then select Settings.
2. Select Vehicle.
3. Select Driver Assist System Setup.
4. Select Road Departure Mitigation Setting.
5. Select from the options.
Normal (default): Steering control starts from inside the lane edge.
Wide: Steering control starts from outside the lane edge.
Warning Only: The system only provides a BRAKE message, but does not apply steering or braking.
Narrow: Use for driving on narrow roads.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 11, 2021, 03:20:59 PM
I have RDMD set to Delayed rather than Early or Normal. Is this best setting?.

I don’t see these options in 5. They belong to another Jazz? - see below

Models with Display Audio
1. Press the HOME button, then select Settings.
2. Select Vehicle.
3. Select Driver Assist System Setup.
4. Select Road Departure Mitigation Setting.
5. Select from the options.
Normal (default): Steering control starts from inside the lane edge.
Wide: Steering control starts from outside the lane edge.
Warning Only: The system only provides a BRAKE message, but does not apply steering or braking.
Narrow: Use for driving on narrow roads.

They're not on my MY21 Jazz either - the only setting I have for RDMS is either early, normal or delayed - mine was always set to delayed, but still goes crazy when driving down very narrow country roads.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 11, 2021, 04:00:22 PM
Mine is the same none of those other settings.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kenneve on October 11, 2021, 05:17:57 PM
I turn RDMS off every journey start.
+1, useless piece of equipment and downright dangerous on UK country roads.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 11, 2021, 05:35:51 PM
I'm getting the impression that the NCAP offices have a similar scheme to our old YOPS
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 11, 2021, 06:58:55 PM
I turn RDMS off every journey start.
+1, useless piece of equipment and downright dangerous on UK country roads.

Don't blame the equipment for the quality of your UK roads... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
The question remains: is the equipment dangerous or are your roads dangerous? (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c034.gif)

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: stiggysawdust on October 11, 2021, 08:33:08 PM
I turn RDMS off every journey start.
+1, useless piece of equipment and downright dangerous on UK country roads.

It's horrible and really annoying. I now turn it off when it starts to become really annoying. Problem is, it seems to need a combination of around 20 button presses and roller clicks to turn it off and you have to do that every journey.
Or does anyone know another way? I hope so, because I am seriously thinking of changing to a Toyota Yaris Cross. That's if I can get a response from Toyota. Cannot even get a brochure, only a download. Even Carwow gets me no quotes.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 11, 2021, 08:51:26 PM
It's horrible and really annoying. I now turn it off when it starts to become really annoying.

Did you already experience that RDMS switched itself off (temporarily)? When you ignore it twice or three times it does.
Anyway, when you keep your hands (firmly) on the wheel you win!  ;)

I hope so, because I am seriously thinking of changing to a Toyota Yaris Cross.

I am sorry to announce that on a Dutch Toyota Hybrid forum people have the same complaints about LTA (the name Toyota uses for their RDMS). So a Yaris Cross won't solve the problem...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 12, 2021, 04:58:52 AM
To turn RDMS off :

1) Press the top centre button by your right knee - that will change the speedo display to show 3 of the safety systems.
RDMS is the top one and therefore automatically has the focus.

2) Press the roller button and the RDMS changes from green to white.

Done.


Note: When you first startup,  the speedo display will show seat belt info for many minutes, if you allow it. Just keep pressing the home button until you get to your chosen default display - then go to 1) above.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: PaulC on October 12, 2021, 08:51:52 PM
To turn RDMS off :

1) Press the top centre button by your right knee - that will change the speedo display to show 3 of the safety systems.
RDMS is the top one and therefore automatically has the focus.

Is this for a car with left hand drive?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 12, 2021, 09:46:32 PM
Having driven 3k miles with it switched on, it’s now likely to always be switched off whenever I start the car.

Many of the roads I drive on are narrow winding country roads, which set off many false alarms. Having the system shut off due to condensation made me appreciate not having it on.

I drove down to Beaulieu museum the other day, there is a perfectly straight road to get there that is plenty wide enough… but RDMS was giving alerts while driving along it!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 12, 2021, 10:37:28 PM
To turn RDMS off :

1) Press the top centre button by your right knee - that will change the speedo display to show 3 of the safety systems.
RDMS is the top one and therefore automatically has the focus.

Is this for a car with left hand drive?

In our (left hand drive) Jazz you find the button at your left knee.
In addition, RDMS is not the top, but the middle safety symbol.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 13, 2021, 05:23:00 AM
To turn RDMS off :

1) Press the top centre button by your right knee - that will change the speedo display to show 3 of the safety systems.
RDMS is the top one and therefore automatically has the focus.

Is this for a car with left hand drive?

No ... wherever your under dash buttons are
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 13, 2021, 11:10:52 AM
Having completed a 25 mile journey with RDMS manually switched off… I might be imagining it, but the steering seemed slightly better/sharper.

Perhaps RDMS has a tiny effect on steering quality when it’s on?

I have lots of windy country roads on my journey.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 13, 2021, 11:24:46 AM
I have lots of windy country roads on my journey.
Windy or windy?  :D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 13, 2021, 12:41:36 PM
Can be both! I’m impressed with the stability of the Jazz at high speed in strong winds.

It’s much better than the mk1 Yaris hybrid I used to have.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 16, 2021, 10:16:00 AM
Now that I have driven several hundred miles with RDMS manually disabled...

I've noticed the steering is definitely a bit lighter and sharper at low speeds!

There shouldn't be any reason for this, as lane departure should only activate if you cross a white line without indicating, but perhaps it's keeping a slight connection to the steering all the time ready to react when the system is active?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 20, 2021, 10:46:19 AM
I've got a real mental block about how to turn this thing off despite the excellent explanations above. It seems a monumental PITA to do so I've decided to leave it on. Fortunately there is only one bit of road near me when it activates and that's a junction with a left turn lane and two other lanes, the outer one being a right turn as well as a straight ahead. The system doesn't like this and I guess it's because there are parked cars and a bit of a cluster of vehicles at the lights.

The state of my understanding of these systems is illustrated by the fact that I thought it was Lane Keep Assist! I am right in thinking, aren't I, that this only operates above 40 mph and you have to turn it on?

I mentioned this on another thread but I have a friend who changes his car every 3 years on PCP deals. His current vehicle is a Lexus self charging hybrid. We were discussing all these various devices and he said he just drives the car and ignores most of the beeps. He never uses ACC either.

This is the first car I've had where I am genuinely nervous about exploring all the various menus so I am pretty close to adopting my friend's approach. I've got the radio set to my favourite station and the screen that shows the mpg etc. I can't even begin to work out how you check the various trip meters so mine is permanently on A.

I have to say I found the controls on the Mk3 to be vastly more user friendly.

I love the car though and now I've reconciled myself to just ignoring the various "aides" I am happy!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2021, 10:52:37 AM
I followed a 20 reg Skoda Fabia yesterday and on every LH bend when traffic was coming the other way his brake lights came on randomly,  and at one point in a 40 limit the car was down to 25mph,  I did wonder if driver was a victim of modern tech ?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 20, 2021, 12:23:09 PM
I've got a real mental block about how to turn this thing off despite the excellent explanations above.

Once you are in and powered up, if like me you will get the initial display :

(https://i.imgur.com/GRgUC03.jpg)

Keep pressing the steering wheel Home button until you get to your favourite user set screen.
This will likely take you through the various seat belt displays :

(https://i.imgur.com/89sRAJz.jpg)

Once there, press this button by your right knee :

(https://i.imgur.com/nBl9lTq.jpg)

This will change the display to this :

(https://i.imgur.com/nwzYaVz.jpg)


In this example the RDMS is the top of the 3 so is already selected.

Now press the rotary button just to the left of the Home button and this should occur :

(https://i.imgur.com/2nof0Yk.jpg)


Now just press the Home button again to get back to your pre-set favourite.

Proper Job

KremSearch (Just a tag to help me find this quickly next time)

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 20, 2021, 12:49:51 PM
Excellent. Thanks for this Kremmen. I will definitely give this a go.

I think I need a "fiddling about" session with the car stationary. I must say the user guide they give you with the car is useless but I have accessed the on-line version.

Just to see if I am alone in my incompetence I googled the topic of "being overwhelmed by tech in new cars" and a gratifyingly large number of entries appeared. BMW dealerships allowing 2 to 3 hours to "explain" the car (this was Australia) and people even coming back for refresher courses!

It also seems to be the case that a large number of people do not use much of the technology on board a modern car.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 20, 2021, 01:43:32 PM
I downloaded and went through the manual multiple times to get a handle on what was possible.

I think this under dash button press initially came from here though.

I've tried all the options for myself as we all have different experiences and views due to driving style and roads used and the ones I don't like are RDMS, ACC and LKAS.

CMBS has never kicked in AFAIK so that's good to have on standby.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 20, 2021, 02:36:16 PM
Just had an email exchange with my brother - he's even older than me. He got a new 3 series BMW early last month. He says the tech on that "is insane" and he uses almost none of it (he is a bit of a luddite and has never used cruise control). He also keeps getting calls from the dealer reminding him to pair up his phone with the BMW App. He keeps telling the dealer that this is not going to happen.

I know my daughter uses Apple Car Play on her Quashqai so doesn't use the Nissan infotainment system at all and a lot of people do that now. Doesn't get round switching certain things off though.

I wonder if this is a not so subtle way of getting older drivers off the road?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 20, 2021, 05:37:51 PM
I've tried all the options for myself as we all have different experiences and views due to driving style and roads used and the ones I don't like are RDMS, ACC and LKAS.

One thing that continues to puzzle me (as a mildly interested spectator) is the difference between Road Departure Mitigation (RDMS) and Lane Keeping Assistance (LKAS). They sound very similar in detecting lane or road edge markings and actively steering the car to stay within them ... are they effectively the same thing?
Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 20, 2021, 06:09:04 PM
I've tried all the options for myself as we all have different experiences and views due to driving style and roads used and the ones I don't like are RDMS, ACC and LKAS.

One thing that continues to puzzle me (as a mildly interested spectator) is the difference between Road Departure Mitigation (RDMS) and Lane Keeping Assistance (LKAS). They sound very similar in detecting lane or road edge markings and actively steering the car to stay within them ... are they effectively the same thing?
LKAS only operates above 45mph after being activated and also only when it can see clear lane markings on either side.

RDMS works all the time, and is supposed to recognise verges/etc. However on country roads that are a bit narrow it goes off even if you are well clear of any edges.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 20, 2021, 06:51:47 PM
RDMS works all the time, and is supposed to recognise verges/etc. However on country roads that are a bit narrow it goes off even if you are well clear of any edges.

RDMS gives temporarely up when you ignore it some 3 times and even warns that it does! So it doesn't work all the time.  ;D
Moreover, it can be experienced as annoying (it is!), but dangerous seems to me an exaggeration when you keep your hands on the wheel. For those of you who still think so: Kremmen has already neatly explained how to turn it off, with pictures in his post at 12:23:09 PM.

PS You will have to repeat this "switch off" every time you (re)start the car.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 20, 2021, 08:21:32 PM
I've tried all the options for myself as we all have different experiences and views due to driving style and roads used and the ones I don't like are RDMS, ACC and LKAS.

One thing that continues to puzzle me (as a mildly interested spectator) is the difference between Road Departure Mitigation (RDMS) and Lane Keeping Assistance (LKAS). They sound very similar in detecting lane or road edge markings and actively steering the car to stay within them ... are they effectively the same thing?
LKAS only operates above 45mph after being activated and also only when it can see clear lane markings on either side.

RDMS works all the time, and is supposed to recognise verges/etc. However on country roads that are a bit narrow it goes off even if you are well clear of any edges.

So, in terms of functionality, they are both doing the same thing which is trying to keep the car within a lane. The differences are only of detail, ie car speed (not sure why that is relevant, surely lane keeping at <45mph is as important as >45mph?) and how well defined the lane edges are. It'd be less confusing if they just lumped both together under a single system name. Maybe there's some arcane bit of NCAP rules that requires different systems.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 20, 2021, 08:46:21 PM
I've wondered about this Colin. I'm pretty sure Lane Keep Assist is not a requirement of NCAP whereas RDMS is (to get 5 stars). Also, you have to switch Lane Keep Assist on so there isn't that problem with RDMS where you have to turn it off at every new start.

Seems a bit weird to me that LKA is, effectively, optional even though it operates at high speeds and, arguably, more likely to prevent a serious mishap (nodding off at the wheel on the motorway?).

RDMS kicks in at very low speeds. Indeed I'm talking 10 mph in some circs with me. Get too close (in its opinion) and it fires off tugging the steering wheel, applying the brakes and generally being a bloody nuisance. I haven't driven on this sort of road yet but people who drive on narrow country lanes find it actually dangerous. You could be facing on coming traffic and the damn thing will try to prevent you pulling over.

It's a deeply flawed system but Honda are not alone in using this technology. Designed by Health and Safety Bureaucrats I would suggest rather than people who actually know how to design a useful safety feature.

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 20, 2021, 08:50:29 PM
So, in terms of functionality, they are both doing the same thing which is trying to keep the car within a lane.

No, simply put LKAS will keep you above 45mph in your lane while RDMS will keep you on the road.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 20, 2021, 10:20:37 PM
So, in terms of functionality, they are both doing the same thing which is trying to keep the car within a lane.

No, simply put LKAS will keep you above 45mph in your lane while RDMS will keep you on the road.

Without wishing to get too pedantic, they are the same thing. Staying on the road amounts to staying in lane; it's just that the nearside of the lane is bounded by a road edge or verge rather than a white line.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 20, 2021, 11:12:54 PM
My suggestion without getting too pedantic  ;): Book a test drive and experience the difference for yourself. You may also wonder why Honda thinks up 2 names and different controls...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 21, 2021, 07:04:38 AM
You may also wonder why Honda thinks up 2 names and different controls...

Yup, that’s exactly why I’m asking the question. There are two systems with identical functionality (keeping the car within a lane) and only minor differences of detail (speed and lane edge delineator), but different names, sensors, controls, etc ... why have they done that? Others have commented on how confusing some of the electronic controls are, so why have this unnecessary complexity? Is there a reason, or did Honda just have two design teams who didn’t talk to each other?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzist on October 21, 2021, 11:21:33 AM
With my new Jazz I have the experience that on a 60 km (37 mph) road it tries to force a steering correction in the beginning, but when the RDMS notices that it "doesn't help" it more or less realizes that it is a normal situation, he stops the warning movements at the wheel. So I can live with it.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on October 21, 2021, 11:30:14 AM
...One puts you back in the lane if you have veered out the other stops you veering out in the first place.
So I don't class them as being the same thing at all.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Thingy on October 21, 2021, 11:50:35 AM
You may also wonder why Honda thinks up 2 names and different controls...

Yup, that’s exactly why I’m asking the question. There are two systems with identical functionality (keeping the car within a lane) and only minor differences of detail (speed and lane edge delineator), but different names, sensors, controls, etc ... why have they done that? Others have commented on how confusing some of the electronic controls are, so why have this unnecessary complexity? Is there a reason, or did Honda just have two design teams who didn’t talk to each other?
They do not have the same functionality. RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane. If you lift your hands off the wheel (just slightly) it will even steer you round bends. You can only do this for a few seconds before the car shouts at you.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: embee on October 21, 2021, 12:19:20 PM
Is it that one is passive, one is (slightly) active?
My 2018 has lane warning, but it is just a warning, no steering input capability.

I am no luddite, but this stuff really is getting beyond a joke. I'll take as much passive safety as you like (ABS, airbags, stability control etc), as long as it isn't "intrusive" into the driving. Having to live with something which can give "false" interaction (rough road edges etc) and has to be temporarily disabled by menu selection each time just gets tedious.

Having come from the auto industry I often use a comparison with, for example, modern tech where there are continual updates and having to select menus and settings. If when you got into your car it asked you to select ignition timing, fuel enrichment, idle speed, voltage correction etc etc before you could start it, you'd be pretty disillusioned. In engine calibration the engineers did all that for you, just turn the key and drive. That's how consumer products should work, the techy stuff should be largely invisible. Once you start noticing it, then it is lacking.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 21, 2021, 12:30:02 PM
They do not have the same functionality. RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane. If you lift your hands off the wheel (just slightly) it will even steer you round bends. You can only do this for a few seconds before the car shouts at you.

I know.... after (still quite) a few seconds a red wheel with hands appears on the dashboard and than the noise...
But it's still fun to let LKAS do its job through a few bends, driver with hands up (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/f040.gif) and mother-in-law in the passenger seat...:P
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 21, 2021, 02:54:33 PM
Is it that one is passive, one is (slightly) active?
My 2018 has lane warning, but it is just a warning, no steering input capability.

I am no luddite, but this stuff really is getting beyond a joke. I'll take as much passive safety as you like (ABS, airbags, stability control etc), as long as it isn't "intrusive" into the driving. Having to live with something which can give "false" interaction (rough road edges etc) and has to be temporarily disabled by menu selection each time just gets tedious.

Having come from the auto industry I often use a comparison with, for example, modern tech where there are continual updates and having to select menus and settings. If when you got into your car it asked you to select ignition timing, fuel enrichment, idle speed, voltage correction etc etc before you could start it, you'd be pretty disillusioned. In engine calibration the engineers did all that for you, just turn the key and drive. That's how consumer products should work, the techy stuff should be largely invisible. Once you start noticing it, then it is lacking.

Excellent post. I don't have your background but, for a while "labour saving" devices were the buzz words. Things designed to make life easier.

At some point the whole concept of user friendliness went out of the window and complexity became the name of the game as a new generation of tech wizards assumed a level of competence that huge swathes of the population simply do not have and will never have. A neighbour, a woman in her 70s but in no sense of the word senile, described trying to get in touch with our local GP surgery who have been using E Consult since the onset of the pandemic. She phoned the surgery up and was asked to do an E Consult, she refused, she was asked if her husband could do it and she said that he probably could but that wasn't the point.

An American writer, Dave Eggers, wrote about the digital divide at least 10 years ago now and some aspects of the new Jazz in which complexity is seen as a virtue are increasing this divide between the IT savvy and the rest of the population.

The tech absolutely should be in the background. The accursed RDMS should be capable of being disabled by a single flick of a switch even if it does default to "on" after you have stopped.

Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at Honda per se. All car manufacturers are guilty of this. My brother's BMW is actually causing him anxiety.

It's got to stop!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Expatman on October 21, 2021, 03:17:20 PM
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 21, 2021, 03:17:58 PM
RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane.

That's the bit that I don't understand (or maybe I'm not stating it clearly). Surely any system that keeps you central in a lane is preventing you leaving the road? That's what I mean by them having the same functionality, so I don't understand why they've engineered two different systems to do it.

However, I've never driven one so if those who have can detect differences I'll just accept that it needs personal experience to properly understand it.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 21, 2021, 03:43:09 PM
I think the difference is there but I agree it's confusing.

Lane Keep Assist is all about white lines, especially on a motorway or similar and the default is off - it only works above 45 mph iirc and you switch it on.

The RDMS is similar but is not all about white lines, it seems designed to detect pavements and/or hedges or fences. This is where the issue kicks in - narrow country lane, oncoming vehicle, you pull in hard to the left, the system doesn't like this so attempts to "correct" you by nudging the car into the path of the oncoming vehicle.

I haven't driven down any country lanes but I have experienced the system trying to pull me away from parked cars (it judges I am too close - I am not) and into the lane occupied by moving traffic. It's especially noticeable where you have three lanes of traffic at a set of lights.

I have to say I am not even sure if it's always the RDMS or another system designed to stop you crashing into the vehicle in front. Just to say at this particular junction the bloody car is steering me into a lane with moving traffic and applying the brakes. All sorts of images appear in the instrument binnacle, white steering wheels, orange steering wheels one after the other.

It's bloody dangerous and diverts your attention away from driving and towards the noises, steering and brake inputs and symbols the car is deploying. Somebody is going to get seriously injured or worse from this nonsense and there will then be a good case for corporate manslaughter.

Needless to say I now switch it off before every trip. The days of jumping in the car, starting up and driving off are becoming a distant memory.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Thingy on October 21, 2021, 03:46:41 PM
LKAS will only work where there are clear lane markings and is purely to stop you drifting in the lane.
RDMS works on all roads and is designed to stop leaving the road. They are quite different things.

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on October 21, 2021, 03:47:13 PM
RDMS is to prevent you leaving the road. LKAS will keep you central within your lane.

That's the bit that I don't understand (or maybe I'm not stating it clearly). Surely any system that keeps you central in a lane is preventing you leaving the road? That's what I mean by them having the same functionality, so I don't understand why they've engineered two different systems to do it.

However, I've never driven one so if those who have can detect differences I'll just accept that it needs personal experience to properly understand it.

...If you imagine that you are in a dual control car. Someone is sat beside you with a duplicate steering wheel.
They are steering alongside and they keep you towards the middle of the lane you are in with micro wheel movements. This means you stay pretty much central in your lane without you having to do much other than touch the wheel occasionally.
Now imagine they have fallen asleep and you are moving the wheel yourself. You're not very good at it and go onto the white line marking the edge of your lane. Suddenly they wake up, realise you are out/on the edge of your lane and they steer you back in but then let you steer yourself again within your lane whilst they go back to sleep until needed again :D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: richardfrost on October 21, 2021, 04:26:33 PM
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.
There is no eventually about it. People are being killed by misusing the Tesla 'Autopilot'. If ever anything was misnamed, it is that feature.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 21, 2021, 05:05:25 PM
Yes - people have died as Richard suggests.

On Lane Keep Assist I can see value in this on the motorway as it only intervenes if you are straying out of lane - people do get dozy and this is a useful safety measure.

The other 2 systems prevent the driver from using his or her judgement and the "interventions" are so intrusive they can cause alarm and you will lose concentration. I can see that they are designed to stop people mounting the kerb and killing pedestrians or even slow motion collisions but they intrude when no danger is present - this is the problem and also intrude in a way that puts you in danger (avoiding the hedge but steering you into the path of an oncoming vehicle on a narrow lane).

I wonder if any research has been done to establish if these mandatory systems have actually saved any lives.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Thingy on October 21, 2021, 05:16:01 PM
I only drive on narrow lanes when holiday. It does activate when close to the edge but have not found the effect so strong as to steer you into an oncoming vehicle ( though I have not been in this situation). However, next time I am on such a road I will turn RDMS off.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 21, 2021, 06:00:17 PM
If you keep your hands (firmly) on the wheel, because you know what's coming, you for sure win with RDMS by knock-out in the first round! (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/boese/k014.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 21, 2021, 06:06:16 PM
I drive regularly on normal width country roads but had to resort to switching off RDMS every drive now.

I’ve also been on holiday to Hampshire and driven the narrow and single track country roads too. The last time I was there I didn’t know about disabling the system and it was an unpleasant drive having to hold a death grip on the wheel to fight the car when it thought you were too far left to what it thought you should be.

Contrast that to a more recent trip with RDMS disabled, no problems at all on the same roads and much more relaxing.

I believe manufacturers keep adding this tech because it gets them points towards a 5 star ‘safety’ rating.

It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Mellorshark on October 21, 2021, 06:30:25 PM
It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.
How do you know that?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 21, 2021, 06:33:25 PM
Eventually someone is going to be killed or seriously injured by so-called safety systems like RDMS. I completely agree that safety systems should work in the background without the need for any driver involvement, and if that is currently not possible then they should be able to be switched off by the driver simply and in one motion.
There is no eventually about it. People are being killed by misusing the Tesla 'Autopilot'. If ever anything was misnamed, it is that feature.

Tesla should have called it 'fancy cruise control' but Musk is a showman like Thomas Edison was, and would never miss a chance to hype something up.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 21, 2021, 07:00:50 PM
It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.
How do you know that?

One of the main reasons was only a low rating for the autonomous emergency braking system:

Dacia to keep car prices low by avoiding "useless" features
Product boss says customers don't yet want to pay for complex electronic driver aids and other equipment


“At Dacia, we are not chasing Euro NCAP stars – it’s not our philosophy," she said. “We are very much preoccupied by always increasing safety for the passengers on board; our cars always have passenger safety improved."

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-keep-car-prices-low-avoiding-useless-features

I'd looked at Dacia some time ago, and would have considered a Duster if they had automatics back then.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 21, 2021, 07:16:19 PM
It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.

Only... for how long? Read this: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/new-vehicle-safety-systems.html  and this: https://content.intland.com/blog/europe-on-the-move-safer-vehicles-on-eu-roads-from-2022
And the conclusion that Dacia's brand new vehicles are very safe I leave as your conclusion. I'm just curious what it's based on... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a014.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 21, 2021, 08:00:08 PM
Yes - it's coming and will get worse.

I'm still debating whether to disable at each start - 2 systems to disable - the collision mitigation system and the road departure mitigation system. I know it can be done but that's a lot of faffing about before you actually get going.

I might decide to live with it and try to win the battle of wills with the car. Fortunately it's only one situation on my regular journey.

Spoils my enjoyment of what I think is a superb little car but there's not much you can do as all manufacturers have this crap on all new models.

I might up my weight training so I can show the car who's boss ;D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 21, 2021, 08:00:42 PM
So called safety assist on the Honda Jazz gets NCAP 76% versus 42% Dacia Sandero, yet as I have to turn off RDMS before every trip it's not really comparable.

ACC and RDMS have both tried to kill me several times now before I stopped using them/disabled them - RDMS attempting to drive me head on into oncoming traffic on narrow roads, and ACC accelerating me towards the slowing car in front so violently that the CMBS activated, or ACC braking harshly for no reason.

LKAS upset the balance of the the car wobbling it dangerously at 70mph.

Personally I'd rate the systems as useless, apart from CMBS which at least hasn't had the false errors that the Volvo and Toyota Auris systems I've driven had. Volvo CMBS didn't like cars parked on the left verge, cyclists/pedestrians on the pavement or busy roundabouts.

It's probably a numbers game - if the systems cause a few accidents but save a few hundred/thousands of poor inattentive drivers from accidents then it's classed as a success.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 21, 2021, 08:26:35 PM
I think the point of diminishing returns has been reached with all the 'hi tech safety systems' -  and a couple of our family with newer cars than we have switch them all off before driving.  The gigantic oil tanker that the EU is will plough on regardless,  they consider them a form of non-tarrif barrier to keep imported cars out, all the gadgets are doing is pushing the complexity and cost of vehicles up.  No wonder the price of older second hand cars without the gadgets are rising.   IMHO all the gadgets just make drivers less attentive, so a self fulfilling prophecy really.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 21, 2021, 11:59:25 PM
I'm a bit confused after this:

It’s interesting to see Dacia have abandoned the system and while their brand new cars may only get 3 stars they are very safe.

and this:

So called safety assist on the Honda Jazz gets NCAP 76% versus 42% Dacia Sandero, yet as I have to turn off RDMS before every trip it's not really comparable.

Considering the Sandero Stepway "very safe" when you see the end result: not 3, but 2 stars. And comparing to the Jazz: look also at the other categories, not only Safety Assist. Very safe...??

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/sandero-stepway/42506
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/honda/jazz/41212

Next to this... I kind of feel like I'm sitting among some "grumpy old men" :( here, philosophizing about how much better everything was in the past. "Long ago you didn't have to switch off RDMS". Oh... well... nowadays you also don't have to but you can choose to...  ;)
Sorry, I'm only 73 years old and it took me some (in fact very little) time to get used to the quirks of all those "Safety Assist" features. Some of these can be a bit annoying, but life-threatening..??
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a042.gif)

Come on guys! It's  2 0 2 1 !!!

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 22, 2021, 05:49:42 AM
Would you not consider a car that steers you into the path of an oncoming car on a narrow lane life threatening ?

This isn't a single post about this issue but one of many, who have been driving for many years, know how wide their car is, can see how wide the road is and deliberately move towards the kerb/verge to allow a safe passing distance only for the car to try and steer them more into the road reducing the passing gap ?

If your driving style and experiences haven't encountered this issue then I accept that, don't turn off RDMS based on others experiences .

Please accept though those drivers who have experienced RDMS issues and respect their concerns.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on October 22, 2021, 08:53:25 AM
I have got used to RDMS, it's a bit annoying sometimes but has helped once or twice when I may have lost concentration for one reason or another. I can't say it's ever put me in any danger. I drive a lot round country lanes but at the low speeds I drive in those situations RDMS hardly ever activates, it would only cause a collision if you're maybe driving too fast (which many people do on narrow roads), so long as you can stop within the visible road ahead you should be ok.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Expatman on October 22, 2021, 09:06:21 AM
At what speed does RDMS activate or deactivate? Or is it 'on' permanently?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 22, 2021, 09:18:13 AM
I have got used to RDMS, it's a bit annoying sometimes but has helped once or twice when I may have lost concentration for one reason or another. I can't say it's ever put me in any danger. I drive a lot round country lanes but at the low speeds I drive in those situations RDMS hardly ever activates, it would only cause a collision if you're maybe driving too fast (which many people do on narrow roads), so long as you can stop within the visible road ahead you should be ok.

The speed limit on those narrow roads without even a white line in the centre ( less than 20 feet wide ) is 60mph, don't ask me why. A lot of the ones by us have a ridge of loose gravel and grass in the centre,  makes it tricky on a motorbike.  I agree people go too fast on narrow roads, most of which have a lot of bends in them,  and many do not take notice of passing places, and even though they have only just passed one will expect the other driver to reverse quite a long way.  I had one bloke in Cornwall freeze when he saw me and he stopped in the narrowest place, there were cars behind me who reversed back and filled a passing place up, he would not reverse - worst of all he had a passenger who said 'I was a van driver for 30 years mate,  plenty of room for you', I don't know if you are familiar with a Cornish 'hedge' a rough stone wall covered in plants, but my nearside mirror was up against the wall and my other mirror missed his by about an inch, we were on a slight bend as well  :(    I do remember saying to the ex-van driver passenger 'it there is plenty of room why don't I stay where I am and you can drive your mates car past mine, and I can claim on his insurance then ' - he didn't take me up on the offer and traffic was building up in both directions, I had only had the Civic a few months from new at that time.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 22, 2021, 09:19:01 AM
My first major issue with RDMS was this, that I reported a while ago with associated image :

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=13654.msg106515#msg106515

That thin shiny road join sent the steering wobble into overdrive along with the orange steering wheel icon. Maybe because I was close to 70mph as I'd left the M25 and was joining the M40 so it considered that speed dangerous.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: nowster on October 22, 2021, 09:38:31 AM
Come on guys! It's  2 0 2 1 !!!

Indeed it is! Where's my flying car?  ;D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 22, 2021, 10:25:19 AM
My wife and myself are in our 70's. I am broad minded about tech but my wife is not. If my wife has an unpleasant experience in our Jazz she is very likely to be put off driving it.

Tech should not need to be understood; it should do its thing invisibly; if the user needs to fiddle with it, it's not well designed.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: richardfrost on October 22, 2021, 10:45:45 AM
Come on guys! It's  2 0 2 1 !!!

Indeed it is! Where's my flying car?  ;D

Then we would have "I am concerned about the safety of my Honda LFCWS (Low Flying Collision Warning System)! Every time I want to buzz my neighbour's house the system thinks I am going to crash my flying car and shouts 'Pull up!' at me all the time before yanking the wheel and making me nearly collide with a 747 coming in the other direction."
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 22, 2021, 11:04:30 AM
The speed limit on those narrow roads without even a white line in the centre ( less than 20 feet wide ) is 60mph, don't ask me why. A lot of the ones by us have a ridge of loose gravel and grass in the centre,  makes it tricky on a motorbike.  I agree people go too fast on narrow roads, most of which have a lot of bends in them,  and many do not take notice of passing places, and even though they have only just passed one will expect the other driver to reverse quite a long way.

Already some time ago I wrote this:

Don't blame the equipment for the quality of your UK roads... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
The question remains: is the equipment dangerous or are your roads dangerous? (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/c034.gif)

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 22, 2021, 11:25:27 AM
I'm all for tech, and have been an early adopter of hybrids.

However, the systems on the Jazz just aren't that good.

My trade-in was an ex-management Volvo with every safety extra box ticked. Lane departure, auto braking, HUD for following distance, etc.

In 15k miles I never once had any issue with the ACC, yet in the Jazz I've had loads of issues. Low speed follow with stop even worked perfectly in the Volvo during heavy stop/start traffic on the M25.

Lane departure in the Volvo never once tried to put me head on with another car on a perfectly wide enough road or warned me on a straight road that I was about to crash.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 22, 2021, 11:28:27 AM
With respect to Jazzik, in my opinion, replies like this are disrespectful to fellow members.

We know what the year is and we've mostly been driving long enough to know what's safe and what isn't.

This constant 'Honda have got it 100% correct and you are all wrong' is becoming tedious.

Please be respectful to fellow members.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 22, 2021, 11:40:50 AM
Then we would have "I am concerned about the safety of my Honda LFCWS (Low Flying Collision Warning System)! Every time I want to buzz my neighbour's house the system thinks I am going to crash my flying car and shouts 'Pull up!' at me all the time before yanking the wheel and making me nearly collide with a 747 coming in the other direction."

(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a055.gif)(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a049.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 22, 2021, 12:40:44 PM
Just for the sake of balance I spent some time last evening looking up stats on whether these various systems make cars safer and, as a sceptic, the evidence, from a multitude of sources does indicate improvements in safety.

Just done a supermarket run, no orange steering wheels but the traffic was light. I'm moving towards a selective approach to the systems. Early last month we had a week in the lakes in our Mk3 - some of the narrow roads would have had the system going absolutely bonkers. If faced with these conditions, disabling the system is the obvious way forward. I feel the RDMS would lead to collisions in these circs or, at the very least, scratches and dents and, of course, insurance claims.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 22, 2021, 12:41:57 PM
My answers are not meant to be disrespectful, (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/verschiedene/a014.gif) but I did expect some sense of humor from the reader.
'Honda have got it 100% correct and you are all wrong' I never claimed. I did say that RDMS can be annoying.
Also I wonder if anyone here has ever read the (online) owner`s manual https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_90f/file.res/2021%20Jazz%20Owner%60s%20Manual.pdf
and specifically those pages regarding RDMS (478-486)
When I read a question like: "At what speed does RDMS activate or deactivate? Or is it 'on' permanently?" I just doubt that. Do you have RDMS set to "Early", "Normal" or "Delayed"? Or you don't know...?
For Expatman: read page 481...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 22, 2021, 12:45:01 PM
People will be blaming the safety systems for their accidents soon,  well officer I was driving along minding my own business when the car went over to other side of road.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 22, 2021, 12:51:35 PM
With respect to Jazzik, in my opinion, replies like this are disrespectful to fellow members.

We know what the year is and we've mostly been driving long enough to know what's safe and what isn't.

This constant 'Honda have got it 100% correct and you are all wrong' is becoming tedious.

Please be respectful to fellow members.

Good chance that British taxpayers paid for the better roads in Poland   - of all EU countries they are the biggest beneficiary of EU payments  - to the tune of 11 billion Euro annually   https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

Ever notice when you drive into Wales and Scotland how good their roads are compared to England, again a beneficiary of Englands generosity via the Barnett formula  :o

If a safety feature has to be used selectively and is a downside in certain conditions - these systems appear to be Beta at best,  and rushed into use before they are properly developed..

Notice how quiet it has gone on autonomous vehicles,  no big breakthroughs or massive developments,  and lots of companies have dropped out...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: richardfrost on October 22, 2021, 01:16:02 PM
I'm all for tech, and have been an early adopter of hybrids.

However, the systems on the Jazz just aren't that good.

My trade-in was an ex-management Volvo with every safety extra box ticked. Lane departure, auto braking, HUD for following distance, etc.

In 15k miles I never once had any issue with the ACC, yet in the Jazz I've had loads of issues. Low speed follow with stop even worked perfectly in the Volvo during heavy stop/start traffic on the M25.

Lane departure in the Volvo never once tried to put me head on with another car on a perfectly wide enough road or warned me on a straight road that I was about to crash.

I think this is the key. I have all of these systems on my RAV4 and never an issue. I think ACC is not really for heavy traffic but the Toyota system allows you to just use regular Cruise Control if you prefer. I think Honda need to listen to the concerns expressed here and consider them alongside their own experience and their focus groups, and iterate to more understandable, reliable tech.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 22, 2021, 01:49:56 PM

I think this is the key. I have all of these systems on my RAV4 and never an issue. I think ACC is not really for heavy traffic but the Toyota system allows you to just use regular Cruise Control if you prefer. I think Honda need to listen to the concerns expressed here and consider them alongside their own experience and their focus groups, and iterate to more understandable, reliable tech.

Yes, I agree. On the owners groups for previous cars I've owned there are no posts about ACC or RDMS - the systems just work away in the background as they are supposed to.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 22, 2021, 01:55:57 PM
Is the use of a camera rather than radar why the MK4 is not so good at analysing the situation?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on October 22, 2021, 02:08:23 PM
...How violent a reaction are we talking?
I've experienced a small shimmy from the wheel and the orange hands image on the screen but as I was under 30mph and holding the wheel it wasn't much to write home about.

What should I be expecting if it really kicks in?!!  :o
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: richardfrost on October 22, 2021, 02:09:09 PM
Is the use of a camera rather than radar why the MK4 is not so good at analysing the situation?

Could be. A 'radar' system would give very accurate measurements of vehicle distances, relative speeds etc., whereas the camera has to estimate, and presumably there is a much greater margin for error to allow for. The system on my car is based on the same ultrasonic sensors as used for parking I believe, but I think that is combined with camera data also.
Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 22, 2021, 02:45:57 PM
...How violent a reaction are we talking?
I've experienced a small shimmy from the wheel and the orange hands image on the screen but as I was under 30mph and holding the wheel it wasn't much to write home about.

What should I be expecting if it really kicks in?!!  :o
At 70mph I’ve had a car shimmy that was the worst I’ve ever experienced - felt like the car would spin out of control if I didn’t disable the system rapidly. Felt like it was over correcting one way than another and would have kept increasing until the car was out of control!

Perhaps the stability control would have saved things - just like the CMBS may have  saved the car from the ACC crashing it. It’s like one system doesn’t work and another system has to stop it from causing issues.

In aeroplanes/spaceships (I was watching a program about the Space Shuttle recently) they sometimes get this control problem and can remove it through software tweaks.

The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic. Not even CMBS could save you from a last second head on steering movement from the RDMS at 80-120mph closing speed.

All on roads I have been driving for decades in a variety of cars, including brand new demonstrators from different manufacturers that have never done this.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 22, 2021, 05:20:57 PM
Looks like Honda have a problem here now people with experience of other brands have contributed to the thread. The main issue is over sensitivity it would appear and the wrench on the steering wheel I felt was not trivial, the car was attempting to steer me into danger (low speeds admittedly so light damage to the vehicle or vehicles being the most likely result).

Is this like the wretched Tyre Pressure Warning system? Something absolutely not fit for purpose on the 2 Mk3s I had.

I gather you can alter the sensitivity of these systems? It would almost certainly be beyond me so I may take the car to the dealership to get somebody to alter the setting on RDMS and CMS.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 22, 2021, 05:33:03 PM
My brothers Suzuki Vitara seems to use millimetre radar and camera functions with ACC, auto braking etc.  Maybe Honda made a mistake with using camera only ( but didn't Tesla decide to do everything with cameras rather than radar and lidar ? ).  He still has problems with the vehicle braking at odd times, especially on narrow roads - will ask him about his experience with the Suzuki lane keeping and other stuff, and if he has ever had a problem changing lanes on motorway etc.   He probably has had problems because he turns everything off every time he starts the Vitara...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on October 22, 2021, 06:03:36 PM
Round here there are a lot of urban streets where the residents thoughtfully all park on one side of the road, leaving room for traffic to pass both ways on the remaining carriageway. But there's an increasing trend for people to just barrel through the centre and not leave space for oncoming vehicles; I'd been putting that down to inept drivers not knowing how wide their cars are, or maybe just a boorish "Get outta my way" attitude. But maybe they're actually wrestling with their version of RDMS which won't allow them to get close to the kerb or the line of parked cars.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 22, 2021, 07:23:06 PM
I gather you can alter the sensitivity of these systems? It would almost certainly be beyond me so I may take the car to the dealership to get somebody to alter the setting on RDMS and CMS.

Do you have RDMS set to "Early", "Normal" or "Delayed"? Default setting is "Delayed", but check it! You really don't need the dealer: Have a look at
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_90f/file.res/2021%20Jazz%20Owner%60s%20Manual.pdf page 154 and 155 show how to change the settings on RDMS and CMS.
 It's really THAT simple!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 22, 2021, 08:30:59 PM
I've been driving on narrow Welsh lanes for the past week. I've been silently swearing at drivers coming towards me without slowing down. I've been braking, sometimes to a full stop and pulling over as close to the rocky banks as I dare. The cars coming towards me just whizz through the gap.  :o

I got more respect when I drove a manky old Land Rover.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzist on October 23, 2021, 10:14:13 AM
My answers are not meant to be disrespectful, (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/verschiedene/a014.gif) but I did expect some sense of humor from the reader.
Quote
Was Spitting Image not a British programme?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 23, 2021, 10:44:26 AM
My answers are not meant to be disrespectful, but I did expect some sense of humor from the reader.

The British are losing their sense of humour due to draconian 'insult' laws, you can offend someone by looking at them 'the wrong way' now apparently.  Other than that there is the interminable political sniping of the leftie comedians  - or 'alternative comedy' - what it is alternative to is a mystery,  because it just is not funny,  Ah, maybe it is the alternative to the proper comedy we used to have,  which is now banned..
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Mellorshark on October 23, 2021, 02:05:20 PM
[quote author=shufty link=topic=13858.msg109445#msg109445
The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic.
I find this very hard to believe. I have had mine for 16 months and approaching 5k miles. I have not experienced anything like that. Yes it can vibrate the wheel and sometimes it seems a bit premature but steering into oncoming traffic, no. I have noticed that the vibration happens a lot less now than when I first had the car. So maybe my driving has improved &#129300;.
From your statement above shouldn't you be reporting this to Honda, NCAP and the DVSA.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 23, 2021, 02:55:05 PM
[quote author=shufty link=topic=13858.msg109445#msg109445
The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic.
I find this very hard to believe. I have had mine for 16 months and approaching 5k miles. I have not experienced anything like that. Yes it can vibrate the wheel and sometimes it seems a bit premature but steering into oncoming traffic, no. I have noticed that the vibration happens a lot less now than when I first had the car. So maybe my driving has improved .
From your statement above shouldn't you be reporting this to Honda, NCAP and the DVSA.
As it’s an optional system you switch on they are unlikely to do anything unfortunately- I took the car back to the dealer and they plugged it in and said all was working as it should.

I disable RDMS before every drive, never use LKAS and only use ACC on a clear road and disable before it does anything unwanted.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kenneve on October 23, 2021, 03:12:46 PM
Like Sportse, I can confirm it does happen, but mainly when you need to pull in close to the verge to pass another vehicle.
I also now disable RDMS every trip, as I consider it to be a dangerous function and certainly get a wake up call when I sometimes forget. :o
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 23, 2021, 03:37:46 PM
Am I correct to say that RDMS stops working below a certain speed? When I am facing oncoming traffic in a road narrow enough to worry about a collision I will be doing less than 20mph and be ready to stop. If the other car hits mine I will say, "I was stationary at the time"
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 23, 2021, 03:48:17 PM
In answer to myself.. 18mph, (30 km/) is the RDMS threshold for detecting oncoming vehicles.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 23, 2021, 04:52:24 PM
[quote author=shufty link=topic=13858.msg109445#msg109445
The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic.
I find this very hard to believe. I have had mine for 16 months and approaching 5k miles. I have not experienced anything like that. Yes it can vibrate the wheel and sometimes it seems a bit premature but steering into oncoming traffic, no. I have noticed that the vibration happens a lot less now than when I first had the car. So maybe my driving has improved &#38;#129300;.
From your statement above shouldn't you be reporting this to Honda, NCAP and the DVSA.

Been thinking about this and I'm wondering if it's not more a case of the car preventing you from steering in the direction you want. You see an oncoming car on a narrow lane, you pull over as close as you can to the hedge so both vehicles can pass but the car resists your attempt to pull over.

In my scenario - the 3 lane junction at lights - I want to be in the left lane but the car obviously senses I am moving towards parked cars near the junction and wobbles the wheel.

So you may be right - the car doesn't actually steer you into oncoming traffic but makes it more difficult for you to choose the right path as it were. Still very far from ideal.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 23, 2021, 05:53:44 PM
RDMS and ACC I will never use again so problem solved. LKAS I accidentally pressed once on the motorway and another weird feeling.

They are all trying to fight me when I'm trying to perform a smooth controlled drive.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on October 23, 2021, 06:01:33 PM
... I'm loving LKAS, ACC has worked well so far and RDMS isn't causing a problem with the mild strength of the force feedback from the wheel.
So all in all I'm not having any problems with those systems at the moment.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 24, 2021, 07:33:37 AM
On the Honda website, if you go into the Jazz section and then click on Reevoo for owners comments/ratings there are many people saying they have issues with RDMS.

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 24, 2021, 08:04:21 AM
I'm not surprised.

I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's wrong for me.

I've been driving long enough now to not want anything tugging and flashing me in any direction be it steering or brakes.

For those who like the systems then fair enough.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: John Ratsey on October 24, 2021, 08:27:21 AM
It will be interesting to find out if Honda took note of the feedback and has dumbed down RDMS on the new HR-V. In principal it's a good idea but in reality isn't suitable for many British roads.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 24, 2021, 09:21:16 AM
On the Honda website, if you go into the Jazz section and then click on Reevoo for owners comments/ratings there are many people saying they have issues with RDMS.

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html
I found a link to customer reviews but the connection doesn't work.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 24, 2021, 09:30:14 AM
From the link, just scroll down a short way to see the "Reevoo, Read 1.037 Reviews"

If clicking that doesn't work then you may have popups blocked.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 24, 2021, 12:55:33 PM
On the Honda website, if you go into the Jazz section and then click on Reevoo for owners comments/ratings there are many people saying they have issues with RDMS.

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html

Indeed... but like here on this forum you can read very mixed opinions:

- Suzanne, 12 July 2021 "Like the safety features".

- Janet, 11 July 2021 "1. Didn't like the safety feature that moves the steering wheel from the side.  Our lanes are too narrow and I felt i was being pushed into the path of the oncoming car."
2.  You have made the car wider.  dangerous for our narrow lanes.

- James, 9 July 2021 "The road safety features such as lane assist etc make you feel safer when driving".

- RICHARD, 30 June 2021 "steering warnings don't take account of poor road conditions. Its disconcerting when steering momently tightens."

- David, 30 June 2021 "Equipment level including technology driver assists is first class."

- Alan,  28 June 2021 "Lane keep assist stays off far to long if you go over white line or near edge of road which sometimes it is Inevitable. Worse on narrow roads."

And so on, and so on...
It is clear that the negative comments about RDMS almost all (or all?) have to do with road conditions (our lanes are too narrow).
Now I could of course repeat: Don't blame the equipment for the quality of your roads, but I won't... ;)
It is not without reason that Honda indicates in the manual where and when the safety devices do or do not work reliably and how to switch them on or off.
And mind you. If your daily drive is narrow country lanes: it takes not even 10 seconds to switch RDMS off at the (every) start. LKAS only works if you turn it on yourself.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 24, 2021, 09:43:01 PM
Our previous car was a Toyota Yaris Hybrid. When we planned to replace this Yaris, there were two options: the new Yaris Hybrid and the Jazz.
We read here about problems with (certain parts of) "Honda Sensing" the Jazz's driver assistance systems. Don't think these kinds of complaints only exist about the Jazz.
On the Dutch "Toyota Hybride Forum"  https://www.toyotahybrideforum.nl/index.php  under topic "Are driver assistance systems safe?" You will find the following summary (I will try to give an adequate translation):


DRCC (Dynamic Radar Cruise Control) often brakes much harder than the predecessor slows down and this could cause a rear-end collision. There is also no limit to resuming the last set speed after the predecessor disappears from view.
There should be a difference between predecessors that take a turn and those that go faster.
A full range system is less safe than a system that only at a speed of e.g. 30 or 40 km can be switched on.
Especially at intersections or roundabouts, acceleration to the last set speed is not desirable when the vehicle in front leaves the intersection or roundabout.


LTA (Lane Tracing Assist) steers towards the center of the road in some cases when this is not desired, such as crossing bicycle lanes on narrow roads when an oncoming vehicle is approaching or at a road narrowing and also with incorrect markings on roads under construction. The system cannot be switched off at the moment and that is not pleasant in the situations mentioned. It is also being examined whether the LTA can be made switchable or whether the software can be made smarter. Such as the recognition of certain types of markings to which the LTA does or does not actively respond.

LCA (Lane Centering Assist) is a system that gives up at the slightest, so sometimes it makes and sometimes doesn't make steering corrections to keep the car in the center of the lane.


Toyota LTA = our RDMS.

All this does not make the Jazz any better or worse, but at least the feeling that we are not alone might give some comfort... (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/traurig/a020.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on October 25, 2021, 06:06:10 AM
Thanks Jazzik, that’s awful that you can’t even turn the Yaris system off!

I was going to get a new Yaris initially, having owned a couple of Toyota hybrids before, but didn’t as Toyota is still sticking their catalytic converters out the underneath of their cars where they are easy to steal.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 25, 2021, 06:47:34 AM
I think this is the theme of new cars thanks to EU NCAP.

I haven't checked but as part of the NCAP rating some systems may have to be enabled by default. Whilst we would like the option to turn them off permanently, that assumes that there is just one driver.

A car with multiple drivers, each knows what the default position is and can adjust each 'system' as required.

So we've now heard about BMW and Toyota also with dissatisfied owners.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on October 25, 2021, 09:19:47 AM
An amusing article in our local paper, the person who writes a regular column says his car has speed limit recognition feature and he has had some odd speeds shown up on his dashboard display, picked up from extraneous signs,  but the oddest was when it showed speed limit as 90, he had been following lorry with 90km/h sign on the back.

Another amusing story about a woman wearing a T shirt with 'KNITTER' on it,  she walked across a bridge in Bath and strayed into bus lane, where the CCTV / ANPR system snapped her, a bemused van driver in Dorking with the registration KN19TER got a surprise fine through the post. 

These systems are not even BETA,  maybe just climbed out of the 'omega' category at best.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 25, 2021, 10:18:10 AM
The speed limiter shortcomings are why I wouldn't even attempt to use this feature. It often picks up signs near but not actually on the road and sometimes, if the signs are obscured in some way, it will show no speed limit where there is one. Useless but I gather all cars with this system are the same.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 25, 2021, 12:31:16 PM
I'm successfully using the LIM function to stop me straying above the M4 smart motorway average speed limit Specs but I agree trying to use the Intelligent Limiter sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on October 25, 2021, 12:52:06 PM
Yes - should have made clear - it's the intelligent speed limiter that is the problem.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: R2D3 on November 03, 2021, 08:46:30 AM
Excellent. Thanks for this Kremmen. I will definitely give this a go.

I think I need a "fiddling about" session with the car stationary. I must say the user guide they give you with the car is useless but I have accessed the on-line version.

Just to see if I am alone in my incompetence I googled the topic of "being overwhelmed by tech in new cars" and a gratifyingly large number of entries appeared. BMW dealerships allowing 2 to 3 hours to "explain" the car (this was Australia) and people even coming back for refresher courses!

It also seems to be the case that a large number of people do not use much of the technology on board a modern car.

The handover of my BMW X1 was about 15 minutes and centred mainly around the opening and closing of the bonnet - the dealer didn't know that the release handle had to be pulled twice to free the bonnet (and I had to look it up in the manual) and closing it was another issue.  The manual said to hold bonnet approx 2 feet off closed position and release.  Much hilarity ensured as the bonnet is held by gas struts, so when released it opened fully!! :)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: PaulC on November 04, 2021, 12:50:23 AM
There are all these automated smarts for doing things like ensuring the Jazz is kept in the centre of a lane and that it does not veer off a road.
Which of them will get temporarily suspended/switched off when the indicator stalk is used to signal that the car is turning right or left or is going to change lanes?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 04, 2021, 05:25:45 AM
There are all these automated smarts for doing things like ensuring the Jazz is kept in the centre of a lane and that it does not veer off a road.
Which of them will get temporarily suspended/switched off when the indicator stalk is used to signal that the car is turning right or left or is going to change lanes?
Unfortunately you won’t be indicating on a straight road :(

While it’s ok on clean motorways/etc with no marks on the road other than clearly defined lanes when you would be indicating to cross them…

On narrow country roads, RDMS goes crazy and thinks you are constantly going to crash!

And that’s happened to me regularly too on roads with no traffic coming where you are driving on your side of the perfectly wide 2 lane road.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 04, 2021, 05:45:26 AM
Fully agree.

On paper RDMS sounds safe but in practice it's just plain annoying and potentially dangerous going by posts here.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 04, 2021, 07:27:23 AM
Fully agree.

On paper RDMS sounds safe but in practice it's just plain annoying and potentially dangerous going by posts here.

imagine how unsafe a self driving vehicle would be, unless every road in the country was changed and kept in perfect order, with no tar banding allowed etc.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: aphybrid on November 07, 2021, 07:56:43 AM
Make the title now RDMS and winter and autumn leaves!

Going down a road with edge of pavement covered on leaves OK for a while then possibly a pattern of them actuates RDMS.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzist on November 07, 2021, 09:52:28 AM
It may just be my car, but I think RDMS is a very smart system from Honda. My experience is that when I drive for a while on a road or a line where RDMS kicks in, the system stops by itself.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on November 07, 2021, 10:02:53 AM
It may just be my car, but I think RDMS is a very smart system from Honda. My experience is that when I drive for a while on a road or a line where RDMS kicks in, the system stops by itself.

I think I'm finding this. For the time being I leave it on. I actually indicate now if passing a parked vehicle requires me to cross the centre line (I guess I always should have done!)

I think the narrow country lanes thing might still be an issue. I think I'd turn it off in these circs.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 07, 2021, 10:06:12 AM
It may just be my car, but I think RDMS is a very smart system from Honda. My experience is that when I drive for a while on a road or a line where RDMS kicks in, the system stops by itself.

The same here... Only "the system stops by itself" I interpret as "RDMS surrenders, I won!" (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a052.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzist on November 07, 2021, 10:25:02 AM
Yes
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 07, 2021, 11:12:31 AM
If I get one steering wheel wobble and an orange steering wheel symbol then that's both one too many for me.

Each to their own though. If it works for you then leave it on.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 07, 2021, 01:13:33 PM
RDMS is like:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/d2/21/58d221f66ca262d957d636383ae8b87e.jpg)

I'm okay with it though, as I have a limited amount of country lanes nearby.

LKAS is also interesting. I travelled down a stretch of motorway which featured burnt out temporary road markings + tar crack filler.

In the bright winter sunshine the Jazz went from being solid as a rock to "oh my, which bit do I follow?" And this despite there being visible white lines for each lane, it got totally confused!

Generally the system is rather good using ACC and LKAS, but I've noticed that in strong winds and with unpredictable road markings it does "run home to mama".

Not the best as I was doing 80mph at the time!

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2021, 01:28:44 PM
I think I'm finding this. For the time being I leave it on. I actually indicate now if passing a parked vehicle requires me to cross the centre line (I guess I always should have done!)

Wonder what action German cars use to mute the lane keeping, no good relying on the direction indicator  :o
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 07, 2021, 01:31:29 PM
I found ACC worked as expected if I stayed in lane.

I had frequent issues when changing lanes, as the slight angle was enough to make it seem to identify a vehicle in another lane and try to match that vehicles speed.

I use LIM now and that's perfect for me.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on November 07, 2021, 03:24:11 PM
I think, with all this tech, it's very much a matter of finding your own comfort zone as it were. A lot of the tech is a step on the way to self driving cars.

Cruise Control is interesting and Adaptive Cruise Control even more so. Speaking to various friends and rels over the years there are those who won't use it at all, those (like myself) who use it very sparingly and others who will use it at 30 mph and as often as possible.

My own approach is to follow the guidance. I never use it in bad weather and I never use it in heavy traffic. I'd go as far as to say that Cruise Control isn't really necessary in the UK. My experience of driving in the USA, however, shows the ideal situations for CC - wide roads and little or no traffic (apart from towns and cities obviously).

I find CC ideal for giving the right leg a bit of a rest on long journeys when you get a reasonably light traffic bit of motorway. I wouldn't change lanes with the CC on. I would, however, use the ACC in the inside lane when resting my leg - I would simply let it do its thing.
Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 07, 2021, 03:26:47 PM
I drove a German car recently- they had the ‘safety sense’ button on the steering wheel rather than down by your knee in the Jazz.

Perhaps they expect people to be turning the systems off regularly?

Certainly their lane keep assist steering force seemed stronger than the Jazz.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 07, 2021, 03:29:25 PM
Others have mentioned fears of skidding in slippery conditions if RDMS interferes with steering . 

I have mine set to' delayed' and find it does not often twitch the steering even on narrow lanes , and when it does its just a minor tactile 'hint'.

At first I wondered why it sometimes does twitch  while most of the time, in apparently similar circumstances  , it does not.

Two reasons I think. On very  narrow roads I am often under 30kph/18mph so the system is not yet active  . And at faster speeds I may be using the accelerator ,brakes and steering often enough it detects active driver input, which overides activation.

The system  is probably less likely to detect road margins, lane markings and the like in snow.So wouldnt activate.  It certainly wouldnt stop you driving into a snow filled roadside  ditch.

  It might activate in ice, mud, loose gravel ,wet leaves etc.    But you could argue that the best defence for this is to drive much slower in these conditions . If it gives you a fright ,or worse, in these  circumstances  you may have been close to the safe limit of traction anyway.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 07, 2021, 04:28:44 PM
Activating ACC is  easy enough  but using it appropriately is a new driver skill to learn. Its not a good idea to use it  in heavy traffic.

Main problem I find is if left to its own devices it will doggedly maintain its set speed (or the speed of the vehicle in front) regardless of the speed of the vehicles in adjacent lanes. If traffic in the faster lane slows appreciably  but your lane is clear the ACC will undertake them.  Undertaking is discouraged in the UK highway code.

On first using it I soon found you really need to 'supervise' what's its trying to do . So often that in busy traffic its easier to switch it off and take over.  .

Once  I was  happily cruising at 60 mph with a clear lane ahead.  Traffic in the faster lane abruptly slowed to 30 mph and built up.  ACC would have undertaken them at 60 mph into the bright blue yonder.
 
I  realised the dangers  - what's caused them to slow ? , will someone abruptly change into my lane?   I immediately took over the helm, and just in time because  someone did abruptly move into my lane.   

Or if 2 or more lanes are travelling at about the same speed it normal politeness to allow room for a certain amount of lane changing and zip merging. I found the ACC was driving like  a selfish pig, speeding up slightly because it was tracking the speed of the car in front,  but to all appearances  it was me deliberately blocking someone about to change lanes. 

And if you leave the slowest lane to overtake a slow vehicle , you may find  your set speed is  too slow for traffic flow in  that lane .  Easily fixed,  use the accelerator to speed up . But some drivers may be unaware they have now become a middle lane hog.

But its great in fairly light traffic. 
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 07, 2021, 04:52:19 PM
Quote
But its great in fairly light traffic.

I think this sums it up nicely. In 10 years such systems will no doubt be able to cope with the "other lane" scenarios you describe. Indeed Tesla seem to be well on the way, but definitely a human at the helm is still needed in dense traffic.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on November 07, 2021, 05:42:07 PM
I often drive on a local road about a mile long that has 30mph speed cameras. I use my ACC set to 30mph to maintain my distance from the vehicle in front. Along this road there are several pedestrian crossings outside schools. When the preceding vehicle slows/stops for a crossing my car just comes to a halt behind them. No problems, yet.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: ColinB on November 07, 2021, 06:00:03 PM
Undertaking is discouraged in the UK highway code.

At the risk of going off topic, there's an interesting debate to be had there. It is certainly forbidden to deliberately change lane in order to undertake. But if traffic is moving in lanes at different speeds, then I think the HC says it's perfectly OK to maintain speed in your lane even if that means you pass someone on the inside. But you have to be wary about someone deciding to move over at just the wrong moment without checking their nearside mirror.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 07, 2021, 06:10:02 PM
[quote author=shufty link=topic=13858.msg109445#msg109445
The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic.
I find this very hard to believe. I have had mine for 16 months and approaching 5k miles. I have not experienced anything like that. Yes it can vibrate the wheel and sometimes it seems a bit premature but steering into oncoming traffic, no. I have noticed that the vibration happens a lot less now than when I first had the car. So maybe my driving has improved &#38;#129300;.
From your statement above shouldn't you be reporting this to Honda, NCAP and the DVSA.

...I think you've missed some bits off your re quote as it's made it look like I originally said this when it was sportse.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: nowster on November 07, 2021, 08:18:42 PM
ACC is actually helpful in stop-go roadworks traffic or free-flowing long 50mph motorway roadworks (with average speed cameras). You do need to be aware of what it's doing, though.
Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 07, 2021, 08:26:40 PM
ACC is actually helpful in stop-go roadworks traffic or free-flowing long 50mph motorway roadworks (with average speed cameras). You do need to be aware of what it's doing, though.
Unless the traffic is speeding up quickly and then slowing down again in the roadworks.

I’ll never use ACC in stop go traffic after I tried it once and it nearly crashed.

ACC can’t keep up with quick (normal traffic in the South) speed changes and in my case triggered the CMBS warning itself.

It’s sad because many people want ACC to use specifically in stop go traffic, but the owners manual says not to use it there.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 08, 2021, 03:49:11 AM
On my previous car I only used CC to stop me drifting over the 50mph average speed, Specs protected, limit. It used to keep me at exactly 50 and all I had to do was plan ahead and change lanes as required.

I tried to do the same with ACC and it just doesn't work and it changes, reduces, your speed unexpectedly.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 08:36:39 AM
Undertaking is discouraged in the UK highway code.

At the risk of going off topic, there's an interesting debate to be had there. It is certainly forbidden to deliberately change lane in order to undertake. But if traffic is moving in lanes at different speeds, then I think the HC says it's perfectly OK to maintain speed in your lane even if that means you pass someone on the inside. But you have to be wary about someone deciding to move over at just the wrong moment without checking their nearside mirror.

Undertaking in low speed ( say <40mph ) is unavoidable on our crowded motorways,  but some folks do it at >70 when traffic is flowing freely and well spaced out,  and that is just stupid and potentially suicidal. Never, ever, ever undertake when an off-ramp is approaching,  driver who are not paying attention ( too many these days ) often see the signs at last minute and dive into inside lane, sometimes from straight out of the 'BMW lane'....
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 09:36:21 AM
On my previous car I only used CC to stop me drifting over the 50mph average speed, Specs protected, limit. It used to keep me at exactly 50 and all I had to do was plan ahead and change lanes as required.

I have seen people brake for the first yellow specs camera and then speed up and brake for second specs camera - they really do not understand 'average speed' do they.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 08, 2021, 10:25:11 AM
:D

I see it all the time on the M4. I just hope they get a NIP and realise their mistake(s)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: embee on November 08, 2021, 10:30:55 AM
It's beginning to sound like folk are concentrating on the "systems" rather than the driving. Is this a sign of the future?

"I crashed because the car didn't say I shouldn't".
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 08, 2021, 11:36:41 AM
Used correctly these systems can allow you to divert a  tiny bit more attention to other hazards.  If you chose to do so.
Some folk think such aids 'self driving cars', and switch themselves off.

It can even happen with satnav voice directions. Tales of people driving into rivers because  the sat nav told them to turn left.  And straight ahead at the junction doesnt mean  ignoring a red light or give way lines !   (all satnavs, I'm not just picking on the Honda/Garmin )

And on a similar vein ,as a life long advocate of manual transmission I always imagined it was all instinctive  But I must admit I now find not having to stir the gearstick mid roundabout etc allows me to concentrate a tiny bit more on what other   traffic is doing.  Not that I was a menace before   :P .  But it may just be I am concentrating on it more at the moment to assess how the blind spot monitoring thingie performs in traffic.   
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2021, 11:51:45 AM
And on a similar vein ,as a life long advocate of manual transmission I always imagined it was all instinctive  But I must admit I now find not having to stir the gearstick mid roundabout etc allows me to concentrate a tiny bit more on what other   traffic is doing.  Not that I was a menace before   :P .  But it may just be I am concentrating on it more at the moment to assess how the blind spot monitoring thingie performs in traffic.

Ideally you should be in correct gear before entering the roundabout ( same with bends on the road ),  most roundabouts these days are 30mph, and many more being reduced to 30, IMHO this is the only safe speed on a roundabout where people are trying to enter at multiple junctions.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 08, 2021, 12:17:20 PM
[

Ideally you should be in correct gear before entering the roundabout ( same with bends on the road ),  most roundabouts these days are 30mph, and many more being reduced to 30, IMHO this is the only safe speed on a roundabout where people are trying to enter at multiple junctions.

I totally agree in principle  .   But its not always  possible to enter a roundabout or gyratory system already  doing 30 mph, and maintain a single speed and gear  all the way round.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Mellorshark on November 08, 2021, 12:49:53 PM
[quote author=shufty link=topic=13858.msg109445#msg109445
The Problem with RDMS is that at any moment on a country road it could pull the steering and send you head on into oncoming traffic.
I find this very hard to believe. I have had mine for 16 months and approaching 5k miles. I have not experienced anything like that. Yes it can vibrate the wheel and sometimes it seems a bit premature but steering into oncoming traffic, no. I have noticed that the vibration happens a lot less now than when I first had the car. So maybe my driving has improved &#38;#38;#129300;.
From your statement above shouldn't you be reporting this to Honda, NCAP and the DVSA.

...I think you've missed some bits off your re quote as it's made it look like I originally said this when it was sportse.
Sorry
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 08, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
As a reminder for UK drivers  here is a cut and past of rule 150 of the Highway code   .   Its obvious really.

Rule 150
There is a danger of driver distraction being caused by in-vehicle systems such as satellite navigation systems, congestion warning systems, PCs, multi-media, etc. You MUST exercise proper control of your vehicle at all times. Do not rely on driver assistance systems such as motorway assist, lane departure warnings, or remote control parking. They are available to assist but you should not reduce your concentration levels. Do not be distracted by maps or screen-based information (such as navigation or vehicle management systems) while driving or riding. If necessary find a safe place to stop.

As the driver, you are still responsible for the vehicle if you use a driver assistance system (like motorway assist). This is also the case if you use a hand-held remote control parking app or device. You MUST have full control over these systems at all times.

Laws RTA 1988 sects 2 & 3, & CUR reg 104 & 110

This is from the highway code updated on 14 September 2021.         I was looking to see if the fundamental changes to pedestrian and cyclist priority  expected  for the Autumn had yet been included.  (eg giving way to pedestrians waiting to cross ,not just  those already crossing)    It doesnt look like they have yet.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2021, 03:32:14 PM
The Highway Code Rule 150 makes perfect sense.

We are, I think, in a grey area en route to self driving cars. Potentially hazardous if people switch off.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 08, 2021, 04:19:54 PM
The issue is the systems are causing issues when people are completely switched on :( and having to fight them for control based on what the car wrongly believes is happening.

If the drivers were switched off, the car would have crashed already.

These are just with simple assistance systems - I dread to think what ‘self-driving’ would make of the roads and traffic in the South.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 08, 2021, 06:53:00 PM
So far I have in over 2 months and more than 3000 km. (some 2000 mi) not yet had to "fight" (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/boese/a058.gif) with the assistance systems. At most I had to "correct" gently (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/liebe/d038.gif) a few times.

And remember YOU are driving, not some system that does indeed need some correction sometimes...
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 08, 2021, 07:34:02 PM
So far in 3 months / 5k miles:

RDMS has tried to send me towards oncoming traffic numerous times and goes off on straight roads.

ACC brakes for no reason when there are cars in other lanes. And has tried to slam me into the car in front in traffic.

LKAS has wobbled the car at high speed on a straight road.

Out of the 4 safety systems fitted as standard the only one that hasn’t really caused any issue is the CMBS.

I disable RDMS before every drive, never use LKAS and manually disable ACC when approaching cars.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 08, 2021, 08:06:36 PM
So far in 3 months / 5k miles:

RDMS has tried to send me towards oncoming traffic numerous times and goes off on straight roads.

ACC brakes for no reason when there are cars in other lanes. And has tried to slam me into the car in front in traffic.

LKAS has wobbled the car at high speed on a straight road.

Out of the 4 safety systems fitted as standard the only one that hasn’t really caused any issue is the CMBS.

I disable RDMS before every drive, never use LKAS and manually disable ACC when approaching cars.

I'm not sure we've even bought the same car!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 08, 2021, 08:35:11 PM
So far in 3 months / 5k miles:

RDMS has tried to send me towards oncoming traffic numerous times and goes off on straight roads.

ACC brakes for no reason when there are cars in other lanes. And has tried to slam me into the car in front in traffic.

LKAS has wobbled the car at high speed on a straight road.

Out of the 4 safety systems fitted as standard the only one that hasn’t really caused any issue is the CMBS.

I disable RDMS before every drive, never use LKAS and manually disable ACC when approaching cars.



(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a038.gif)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 08, 2021, 08:41:11 PM
So far in 3 months / 5k miles:

RDMS has tried to send me towards oncoming traffic numerous times and goes off on straight roads.

ACC brakes for no reason when there are cars in other lanes. And has tried to slam me into the car in front in traffic.

LKAS has wobbled the car at high speed on a straight road.

Out of the 4 safety systems fitted as standard the only one that hasn’t really caused any issue is the CMBS.

I disable RDMS before every drive, never use LKAS and manually disable ACC when approaching cars.

I'm not sure we've even bought the same car!
It’s very strange- perhaps there are different software versions around?

Some people have no issues and others have loads of problems.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 09, 2021, 04:01:59 AM
In my case I take pride in my driving and I adapt to all conditions to make my drive as smooth as possible. All my 3 Civics were p/x'd at about 30k miles and all 3 were still on original pads and tyres and even at that mileage they still had well over half left.

I don't want the car trying to adjust my chosen track or speed, especially when it's due to poor road condition.

Look at most of the Tesla issues that were diagnosed as 'unusual circumstances'.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: DWJazz2021 on November 09, 2021, 06:07:34 PM
Still low mileage but about to take it on the first long drive at the end of this week, 270 miles of mostly motorway and fast A road (each way).

Slightly nervous it’s going to go nuts at some point on that journey; so far I’ve only experienced the (lane keep?) as I drive down the same B road most days and have to cross the central line due to parked cars.

It’s also flashed the proximity thing while I was stationary at junctions and cars were crossing ahead of me (which is fine)

What I’ve not encountered is anything relating to breaking when you approach a stationary object (trial not error) and nor do the buttons near my right knee do anything when pressed (should they?), but I am seemingly able to turn a few things off using the steering wheel controls.

Any tips to check it’s all working as it should before I set off?

Thanks


Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 09, 2021, 06:16:07 PM
Slightly nervous it’s going to go nuts at some point on that journey; so far I’ve only experienced the (lane keep?) as I drive down the same B road most days and have to cross the central line due to parked cars.

This is fast turning into a board where everyone is scared of their Jazz! For the time being we still control the machines, Honda Skynet has yet to be activated. Chill dudes! I for one love my new Crosstar!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 09, 2021, 06:21:10 PM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 09, 2021, 06:38:46 PM
....and nor do the buttons near my right knee do anything when pressed (should they?), but I am seemingly able to turn a few things off using the steering wheel controls.

Any tips to check it’s all working as it should before I set off?

Thanks

Maybe you already did but if not: check here https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_90f/file.res/2021%20Jazz%20Owner%60s%20Manual.pdf a few things like Adaptive Cruise Control, Lane Keeping Assist System, Road Departure Mitigation. When (not) to use, how to switch on/off....
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: DWJazz2021 on November 09, 2021, 07:36:06 PM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 09, 2021, 08:09:14 PM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?
Yes, I do on mine every trip - the car is much more relaxing to drive.

I leave CMBS set on default settings as I haven’t had any issues with that, only the other 3.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 09, 2021, 08:34:01 PM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?

...I don't recommend disabling them at all. In fact I use them on every journey.
There is a lot of scaremongering going on.
Drive it for yourself and make up your own mind.
Title: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 09, 2021, 08:53:49 PM
Another load of new Jazz owners complaining about these ‘safety’ systems on the Reevoo feedback again:

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html

40% of new Mk 4 owners on page 1 of the feedback site, linked from Honda’s own website, complaining about RDMS.

It’s likely that these will be seen by anyone considering buying a Jazz.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 09, 2021, 08:59:17 PM
... Maybe I've got a duff faulty car that just works!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 09, 2021, 09:04:45 PM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?

I would'nt! Just use all of them in the proper circumstances. You paid for it!  ;D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 10, 2021, 02:45:33 AM
Another load of new Jazz owners complaining about these ‘safety’ systems on the Reevoo feedback again:

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html

40% of new Mk 4 owners on page 1 of the feedback site, linked from Honda’s own website, complaining about RDMS.

It’s likely that these will be seen by anyone considering buying a Jazz.

No disrespect but you can't seriously quote like that! 40% of the owners on page 1? How many pages are there? If more (and the other pages have no such comments, then that's not 40%). Better to do a total count and work out how many are satisfied or not.

On the Honest John website there are 15 reviews from owners ( https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/owner-reviews/honda/jazz-2020/ ) with the average score working out at 4.8 out of 5. So if 4.5 / 5 means a satisfied owner then I could say 100% are satisfied! Of course, in the real world these owners may have filled out the response early on in their ownership experience. Perhaps their feelings have cooled since then. And 15 is hardly a representative sample either.
 
It seems 18,659 units have been sold in Europe YTD (https://carsalesbase.com/europe-honda-jazz/) . So whatever I quote, or you quote, we cannot gauge how a typical owner feels about RDMS. I'm not saying people don't have strong feelings about it, but the quote about the 40% is disingenuous.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 10, 2021, 04:13:16 AM
RDMS seems to be a 'Marmite' feature.

Some posts here are following the usual theme of 'I leave it on and I'm right and those that turn it off are all wrong'

I've had it on quite a few times and it frequently gets it wrong by misreading a road surface or failing to identify an approaching car on a narrow road.

If your journeys and road surfaces don't trigger it then that's absolutely fine, leave it on. But don't criticise those of us who find it annoying and turn it off.

My personal choice is :

CMBS - On
VSA - On
RDMS - Off
LKAS - Stays Off
ACC - Stays Off
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 10, 2021, 07:24:44 AM
My personal choice is:

CMBS - On
VSA - On
RDMS - Off
LKAS - Stays Off
ACC - Stays Off

This is a good format for users to post their set-up. Mine is currently:

CMBS - On
VSA - On
RDMS - On
LKAS - On
ACC - On
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2021, 08:05:46 AM

I would'nt! Just use all of them in the proper circumstances. You paid for it!  ;D

I have paid for rat poison in the past, but never tempted to use it personally
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2021, 08:21:38 AM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?

...I don't recommend disabling them at all. In fact I use them on every journey.
There is a lot of scaremongering going on.
Drive it for yourself and make up your own mind.

Seems to me that the 'scare mongers' on here seem to be the experienced sensible people,  and we need to take note of their concerns.  My brother has seen the same on his Suzuki and turns pretty much everything off before driving.  Some people just accept blindly that these things are needed,  but if they can cause sudden unexpected changes in the behaviour of the vehicle then they are obviously not even 'beta' versions and not fit for purpose and just fitted for those extra NCAP stars.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Mellorshark on November 10, 2021, 08:57:41 AM
Those of us that don't have a problem with these systems are just trying to add a little balance to the debate. I think that I've been driving long enough to be experienced. Sensible enough to point out that not everyone has an issue.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 10, 2021, 09:45:28 AM
Exactly my point in post #168

We all have different scenarios to contend with, for some RDMS may never kick in.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kenneve on November 10, 2021, 09:52:48 AM

My personal choice is:

CMBS - On
VSA - On
RDMS - Off
LKAS - Stays Off
ACC - Stays Off

This is a good format for users to post their set-up. Mine is currently:

CMBS - On
VSA - On
RDMS - stays Off
LKAS -stays  Off
ACC - On when required

I don’t think anyone is saying they need to ‘fight’ with these so called safety gizmos. It’s when they ‘take over’ unexpectedly that gives rise to the problem.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 10, 2021, 09:53:52 AM
My personal choice:

CMBS - Always on
VSA - Always on
RDMS - Always on
LKAS - Often on when the circumstances are OK (see manual)
ACC - On (when I feel like) on motorways

And for DWJazz2021: just try it all, otherwise you'll never know. But be prepared for the unexpected.
(However... unexpected... You are warned/scared enough here to expect...)

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 10, 2021, 10:44:52 AM
Jazz is fine if you don’t use ACC or LKAS and disable RDMS - no need to worry.
Recommend disabling for all journeys?

...I don't recommend disabling them at all. In fact I use them on every journey.
There is a lot of scaremongering going on.
Drive it for yourself and make up your own mind.

Seems to me that the 'scare mongers' on here seem to be the experienced sensible people,  and we need to take note of their concerns.  My brother has seen the same on his Suzuki and turns pretty much everything off before driving.  Some people just accept blindly that these things are needed,  but if they can cause sudden unexpected changes in the behaviour of the vehicle then they are obviously not even 'beta' versions and not fit for purpose and just fitted for those extra NCAP stars.

...Age doesn't automatically equal experience or indeed a level of 'sensibility' and one person's 'concern' is another's joy.
I'm not saying that some people haven't come across things that they consider frightening, dangerous, scary or puzzling but to almost declare the car a 'death trap' and proceed to proclaim anyone that says otherwise is not 'sensible' or worse is not helping at all.
I don't blindly accept that these features are needed btw. RDMS I could take it or leave it, LKAS I think is great and hasn't put a foot wrong so far. CMBS hasn't featured yet and VSA is not switched off until it gets snowy/slushy and requires it. ACC I use a fair bit but I do agree normal CC would be good as an option.
I'm not sure having none of those features present would've stopped me buying the car but maybe they have swayed me towards it.

Derbyshire has many varied roads and I've tried a reasonable selection from no marking narrow single tracks to poorly defined white lines to the A38 and M1 and your standard A and B roads in-between.
The systems in question have 'warned' me of lane departure and oncoming cars etc. but nothing more than a warning light on the dash and a slight stiffening of the steering. To some that may feel extreme and dangerous...but maybe not to others.
Unless we can drive each other's cars on each other's roads etc. we can't really be sure what other people are experiencing so I'll just have to agree to disagree about how good or bad the safety systems are.
This is assuming that the versions of everyone's software governing these systems are the same as the scenarios experienced by people on here are wildly differing.

I love my new car and have found it a joy to drive every mile so far and I wish everyone could feel the same about theirs :)

For reference my settings are:
CMBS - On
VSA - On (until snowy/slushy)
RDMS - On
LKAS - On
ACC - On (when required)

Maybe these inconsistencies will be the downfall of the Jazz/Honda in the UK/Europe if so many people are affected or put off by these incidents, who knows!



 
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 10, 2021, 11:51:01 AM
The systems in question have 'warned' me of lane departure and oncoming cars etc. but nothing more than a warning light on the dash and a slight stiffening of the steering

My exact experience so far too. First time it happened was a bit of a surprise, but I'm still controlling the vehicle not the other way round. But I recognise that, for others, it may be disconcerting - especially if more frequent.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on November 10, 2021, 11:58:10 AM
"When I'm cruising in overdrive, don't have to listen to that RDMS talk jive!"
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 10, 2021, 11:59:19 AM
My settings are:

CMBS - On

VSA - On

RDMS - Always off

LKAS - Always off

ACC - On when no traffic around or it’s all moving at the same constant speed with nothing to scare the software, switched off as I approach other cars if not.

I did ask Honda about the issues some people are having, but they just replied that they have no plans to look at the software.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 10, 2021, 12:49:58 PM
My settings are:

CMBS - On

VSA - On

RDMS - Always off

LKAS - Always off

ACC - On when no traffic around or it’s all moving at the same constant speed with nothing to scare the software, switched off as I approach other cars if not.

I did ask Honda about the issues some people are having, but they just replied that they have no plans to look at the software.

...It's a pity they don't seem to be bothered.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 10, 2021, 12:56:35 PM
Perceptions of the effects of  these systems is subjective and maybe its not for others who have no problem to suggest some drivers may be over reacting, or need to change sensitivity settings or 'get used to it'.       
But they may be over represented in  consumer reviews etc.  Reviewers are much more likely to report things they personally dont like  than they are to mention things  it never occurred to them not to like.

Honda probably do listen to complaints but,like most businesses ,are more likely to quietly fix things rather than admit there is currently a  problem.

Drivers have complained in the past about various ' new fangled' safety technology. An experienced driver can stop more quickly in snow without ABS for instance. . I'm pleased to see the Honda system Automatically disables ABS at low speeds.

Traction control suppresses engine power which can cause problems when trying to get out of deep snow, sand, up inclines etc, . You can switch it off on the Jazz.  On many cars you cannot  switch it off, or have to pay silly money for a 'sports' option.

 I have noticed a few Driving schools   using Hybrids.  The Grumpy old man in me thinks "too easy. I didnt even have proper synchromesh. Its character building ".
Apart from the obvious  problem that they are only licenced to drive automatics , what of the new driver aids?     Will they suddenly be phased if driving a car that doesn't try to  stop them driving into ditches and the like?         With ongoing  improvements in 'self driving' technology  will there soon be need for a further class of driving licence that only allows them to drive cars with the necessary technology ?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: shufty on November 10, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
Perceptions of the effects of  these systems is subjective and maybe its not for others who have no problem to suggest some drivers may be over reacting, or need to change sensitivity settings or 'get used to it'.       
But they may be over represented in  consumer reviews etc.  Reviewers are much more likely to report things they personally dont like  than they are to mention things  it never occurred to them not to like.

Honda probably do listen to complaints but,like most businesses ,are more likely to quietly fix things rather than admit there is currently a  problem.

Drivers have complained in the past about various ' new fangled' safety technology. An experienced driver can stop more quickly in snow without ABS for instance. . I'm pleased to see the Honda system Automatically disables ABS at low speeds.

Traction control suppresses engine power which can cause problems when trying to get out of deep snow, sand, up inclines etc, . You can switch it off on the Jazz.  On many cars you cannot  switch it off, or have to pay silly money for a 'sports' option.

 I have noticed a few Driving schools   using Hybrids.  The Grumpy old man in me thinks "too easy. I didnt even have proper synchromesh. Its character building ".
Apart from the obvious  problem that they are only licenced to drive automatics , what of the new driver aids?     Will they suddenly be phased if driving a car that doesn't try to  stop them driving into ditches and the like?         With ongoing  improvements in 'self driving' technology  will there soon be need for a further class of driving licence that only allows them to drive cars with the necessary technology ?

...If nobody put forward that notion then it would just be people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem or danger which, unchecked, could then lead to the consensus that they are indeed correct as nobody has questioned them or put forward an explanation/alternative. People can overreact, it has been known.
The playing field isn't level and never will be.

A wayward Jazz hybrid as a driving school car sounds like a potential nightmare  :o
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on November 11, 2021, 10:40:36 AM
NCAP is going to be rating the performance of assistance safety systems.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/assisted-driving-gradings/

No entries for Honda at the moment.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: TnTkr on November 11, 2021, 10:58:56 AM
Traction control suppresses engine power which can cause problems when trying to get out of deep snow, sand, up inclines etc, . You can switch it off on the Jazz.  On many cars you cannot  switch it off, or have to pay silly money for a 'sports' option.
Are you sure? In Mk3 Jazz the VSA-off button just gives more freedom to spin wheels but will limit the slip eventually. There is a procedure to get it completely off, but that's not instructed anywhere by Honda. https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12099.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12099.0)
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on November 11, 2021, 02:19:01 PM
Traction control suppresses engine power which can cause problems when trying to get out of deep snow, sand, up inclines etc, . You can switch it off on the Jazz.  On many cars you cannot  switch it off, or have to pay silly money for a 'sports' option.
Are you sure? In Mk3 Jazz the VSA-off button just gives more freedom to spin wheels but will limit the slip eventually. There is a procedure to get it completely off, but that's not instructed anywhere by Honda. https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12099.0 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12099.0)

I have only based it on the following from  page 421 of the mk4 online manual   

" When the (vsa off) button is pressed the traction control function becomes less effective.This allows for the wheels to spin more freely at low speed ."

 I hadnt seen your previous post about completely disabling the system to allow for more fun with more spirited  wheel spin. (been there ,done that.  ;)  I'd sometimes  put the car into a controlled slide using 'handbrake turn'.  That wont work with electric handbrake.)

My main concern was getting out of mud and snow.    I used to compete in off road trialling (in a car) where you often got stuck in mud and snow.  We sometimes needed to spin the wheels at maximum revs to blast away loose  mud and snow revealing  a better surface.    My hope is that the basic VSA off switch will still allow enough wheelspin for that.   The instant torque from the electric motor may help. 
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
My hope is that the basic VSA off switch will still allow enough wheelspin for that.   The instant torque from the electric motor may help.

Low powered cars with winter tyres are best - the MK1 and 2 Jazz pretty good  without winter tyres and could drive past many others in snow, but with winters they are unstoppable ( only limit is ground clearance ),  better than the civic with winters on, instant torque is not what you want in slippery conditions, that is why a CVT my wife had was good in snow even with normal tyres as it selected the highest possible gear.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on November 11, 2021, 05:03:16 PM
I had a Bedford HA van for a while when I was a telephone engineer. The engine was pretty gutless, however one winter the world was bogged down with snow and many telephone cable were pulled down by a thick coating of frozen rain. Us phone engineers were working overtime putting the lines back up. My little HA van was superb in the snow. Low power means less chance of breaking grip.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on November 11, 2021, 05:22:25 PM
Same as the Hillman Imp. Engine weight over the drive wheels. They could climb snow hills where normal front engine rear wheel drive had no chance.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on November 11, 2021, 05:57:30 PM
That's why BMW now has front-wheel drive (and 3-cylinder engines)...  ;D
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on November 11, 2021, 06:35:33 PM
That's why BMW now has front-wheel drive (and 3-cylinder engines)...  ;D
I traded mine, (2019 Series One) in for the Jazz. The car is based on the Mini Cooper S.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Hicardo on November 11, 2021, 07:43:14 PM
RDMS always off for me. 8)  ive said before, its nowhere near as well developed as it needs to be to use safely.  The similar system on my 2nd car, a Golf, is loads better, and I leave that one turned on. 

re winter tyres - whats the best option for the crosstar?  I had a look a while back and couldn't find anything I liked, as I wont buy a noisy tyre, and a lot of the budget brands seem to be quite noisy- road noise
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2021, 01:02:05 PM
I've been keeping the RDMS on because the nature of my motoring - short journeys, stop starting etc etc makes it a bit of pain and I'm still not completely sure how to do it despite the many excellent explanations on here. It takes absolutely ages for the seat belt screen to disappear. I managed to get the system to display at one point whilst on the move but couldn't work out how to make it go from green to white. Pressed the home key - nothing.

Did a 5 mile trip this morning - it was wet. I have to say it was "doing my head in." The following occurred.

1) A white steering wheel with no twitching of the steering wheel. No obvious cause. I don't even know what this is.

2) The dreaded orange steering wheel with associated steering wheel twitch. No obvious reason for this. I wasn't overtaking, I was in the right lane. I suspect it might have been a join between 2 pieces of asphalt - I've had this before and, I think, Kremmen has as well.

It's not great is it?
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on December 01, 2021, 01:25:15 PM
The seat belt display can be instantly dismissed by pressing the home button.

There are more than one seat belt displays so you'll probably need a few presses to get to your set/preferred home display.

If you've set the display to show 'icon and words' then you see the 'dismiss' message to prompt you to press the home key.

I really can't do any more than my series of pictures. I can turn off RDMS in seconds now. I forgot once but now it's second nature I did it whilst driving.

As you say RDMS is a real pain. It's big brother gone mad.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on December 01, 2021, 01:31:00 PM
I forgot to turn mine off this morning and it tried to put me head on towards oncoming traffic on a humpback bridge!

It’s good to hear from the HRV review that dealers know about all the complaints with the Jazz system. Honda also mention in the marketing that the HRV has an improved system too.

Hopefully they can do something with the Jazz system via software update.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jayt43 on December 01, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
I posted this elsewhere, but in the US, the new Honda Civic (with the same infotainment / head unit as ours) has a "Warning Only" mode. Therefore, no steering inputs at all from the system.

So yes, I suspect an over-the-air update / dealer update could be done.

See 1:17 from the following:


Presumably, the higher chance of successful litigation / class action stateside may be the reasoning behind the extra mode.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: pauly58 on July 19, 2022, 12:22:23 PM
I have just bought a new Jazz Hybrid for my wife that was delivered on Friday. After her first drive to visit her friend, about 6-7 miles, she complained of a fault in the steering. I was skeptical, but she's been driving long enough to know if somethings not right.

I took it out & sure enough, within a mile or two, something was indeed queer about the steering. The way I would describe it would be similar to a Corsa B of late nineties with the electric power steering unit that frequently failed. It gave the feeling it was going to lock & certainly wouldn't do what you wanted. Horrible.

Later that evening I went on this forum & discovered what was happening & why.

I've been in the most trade most of my working life, I'm 64 now & luckily out of it. I've driven an awful lot of different cars in my time but never experienced something like this. I remember speaking to the owner of a VW/Audi dealer I was working at, & he agreed that cars peaked as regards reliability & build quality in about 2000. Chinese components have ruined the reliability of a lot of makes, Honda Suzuki & Toyota seem to be about the best now & as for German build quality, don't make me laugh.

Anyway to get back on track, at least this "feature" can be turned off, but a nuisance to have to do it every time you start.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on July 19, 2022, 01:11:10 PM
Give the car a few weeks or so; I'm sure you'll get used to it's quirks and learn to love it.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on July 19, 2022, 01:13:18 PM
For me, once RDMS is off, everything else is fine.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Saycol on July 19, 2022, 02:32:42 PM
I always switch RDMS off. If it wasn’t possible to do that I would not have bought a Honda Jazz. Horrible feature!
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: sportse on July 19, 2022, 02:36:30 PM
It's quite funny that to turn off a safety feature, the button to do so is down by your knee so might be unsafe to use unless you know exactly where it is.

On Vauxhalls I've driven, the button is by the gearlever, and you have to just press it once - not bring up a menu, select the item you want and then wait until the screen goes away before you can get back to the dash display you were using.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: pauly58 on July 20, 2022, 02:32:01 PM
Thanks for the replies gents, we went on our weekly shop this morning, no buttock clenching moments, a nice leisurely drive around 45 mph on the Irish lanes, & to top it all 70 mpg on B & Eco setting.

I've just been reading the "joys" of ACC, I think I'll leave that well alone.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 15, 2022, 03:02:11 PM
Guess what .........

The first posts are starting to appear on Civinfo complaining about RDMS on the new e:hev Civic.

I've linked one post to my disabling it tutorial here, higher up this thread, and it also works on the Civic.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: nowster on October 16, 2022, 12:05:27 AM
I always "Engage Rural Mode" when driving to visit my parents in Wales. (ie. Turn off RDMS.)

It really doesn't like single track roads with high banked hedges.
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Jazzik on October 16, 2022, 09:29:12 PM

It really doesn't like single track roads with high banked hedges.

what (or who) does?  :P
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Neil Ives on October 16, 2022, 11:02:28 PM

It really doesn't like single track roads with high banked hedges.

what (or who) does?  :P
I quite enjoy those sort of roads  :P
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Lord Voltermore on October 19, 2022, 04:13:13 PM
Just had my first experience of RDMS switching itself off  because I was ignoring activations  (apparently -I wasnt aware I was) .  Almost like it was sulking.  It comes on again after a few minutes.  ;D

It was in Serbia  (I get around)  so maybe it was freaking out at road markings like in the photo .although i dont recall it reacting to them particularly.  (the 'Svetosavska wording is not really there -added by google maps)  .
Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Kremmen on October 19, 2022, 04:18:06 PM
Faced with all those white road markings I'm not surprised RDMS turned off.  :)

Title: Re: RDMS and winter
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on October 20, 2022, 09:05:38 AM
I have to say that set to the least sensitive setting it doesn't really bother me and rarely comes on, I have learnt to signal more often which probably helps and is not a bad thing