Author Topic: Brexit and the scare mongers  (Read 24870 times)

MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2018, 01:26:11 PM »
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.
If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

auntyneddy

It seems to me there is a lot of demand for this car. I wouldn't personally touch one. In my view, they are overpriced, over rated and impractical. More of a fashion and thrill factor. However, the UK is big business for the motor industry with a high turnover which is largely driven by debt and perceived tax efficiencies. So, if what you say is correct and you are the CEO of 'modern Mini' you pay little attention to the logistical short term shenanigans as long as you can get 'units' on the roads and everyone is happy to pay for them. When sales momentum begins to dwindle you 'react' and go back to the drawing board to rethink your strategy. Every picture tells a story and this one is as cyclical as it gets.

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »
I voted Leave, but not without a lot of thought and soul searching. However, if there was to be a second referendum, I would now vote Leave without any qualms. I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club. Quite a few friends, who were torn, like me, have recently voiced the same opinions.

I voted leave as well,  but without any soul searching at all  :D   I am watching the Italian elections with great interest, one way or the other there is going to be a big upheaval,  and it will not be to the benefit of EU - Italexit anyone  :o

The Euro has punished every EU country except Germany,  who love it because otherwise their goods would be too expensive,  but the Euro overprices every other countries currency and has led to high unemployment and debt.  The best thing UK ever did was to avoid being involved in Eurozone,  but if Sturgeon had her way Scotland would be using it and England would have a hard border to the north.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 01:57:28 PM by culzean »
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culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2018, 02:10:58 PM »
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.
If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

No car company in the world could afford to build cars in the way described,  nor would they even try,  especially with a high volume car like the Mini.  One of the reasons Rover group went bust is that the company was built up from from car plants all over UK that had been taken over and consolidated into the group and the supply chains were convoluted and spread out.   I remember the Rover conveyor bridge over the Bristol Road (A38) that used to take painted bodies over to the trim and final that split the Longbridge factory - the Austin Maxi and 1800 body was too wide to go over the bridge and had to be loaded on lorries and moved between the plants.  Jaguar used to ship bodies from Castle Bromwich plant to Browns Lane plant in Coventry for 'trim and final assembly' and they used extra tall trailers to do it, along the A45 all the bridges were extra high to accommodate the height.

The whole idea of front wheel drive was that it would allow companies to have engines made in separate plants if needed and the whole engine, gearbox and drive train is one unit to be slotted into the car.   
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2018, 02:27:40 PM »

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2018, 10:36:21 PM »
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.

The EU have got to punish us. They can't be seen to be giving us a favourable deal which is free of the obligations of being a EU member. With regards to the free movement of goods and services, the outcome has to be inferior. Even those non-EU countries within the EFTA have inferior deals which cover subsets of their economy, and pay a great deal for the privilege.

As for the Mini assembly, as far as I know, they operate a conventional system where components from both the UK and other EU sources are assembled to completion in Cowley. Certain specialised components may cross currently frictionless borders several times, but most components come from a single contracted manufacturer - this is how modern car manufacture takes place. Don't forget that we have some major component manufacturers in this country who export to other EU countries.

BMW also have a another Mini assembly plant in the Netherlands, VDL Nedcar in Born - the old DAF / Volvo factory. In fact all Mini convertibles and Countryman models are assembled at Nedcar, as well as the BMW X1. The Nedcar plant currently has significant spare capacity.

The obvious answer for BMW is to continue final assembly of imported parts for the Mini hatchback at Cowley for the UK markets, thus minimising import duties to parts only, and expand production within EU borders for EU markets. I'm afraid that long term, if we find ourselves outside of the EU single market, this will become the blueprint for most car manufacturers which have facilities in both the UK and the EU, and longer term, for many other exporting manufacturers.

We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 11:15:56 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2018, 10:47:44 AM »
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?

The Japanese have been much more reliable to the UK than our European 'friends' - Japanese investment in this country has been steady has actually increased since Brexit,  the Japanese are a nation that treasures their independence and would never think of joining a political union such as EU.   The Japanese seem happy enough with Brexit,  and it has no doubt raised our esteem in their country as fellow country that wants to control its own future and trade.

 I think if anyone who voted remain has not changed their mind after seeing the way EU treats nations who are no longer happy with its level of micro-managing control of laws and trade and want out then they truly have an ostrich mentality.   According to one European leader the UK leaving is equivalent to 19 other countries leaving.  The EU is at war on four fronts - from the east Poland, Bulgaria and other former soviet states are not happy now they realise they swapped one political master for another one,  from the south Greece Italy and Spain are not doing well in the Eurozone,  and the influx of illegal immigrants with no support or answer from Brussels is creating unrest.  To the north countries like Norway and Sweden are having second thoughts,  to the west there is Brexit and Trump,  who accuses the EU of unfair trade practices and is taking steps to bring them in line.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/donald-trump-threatens-eu-tariffs-cars-trade-war-warning/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/steve-bannon-says-eus-treatment-britain-brexit-negotiations/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/926667/Italian-election-Voters-Euroscepticism-EU-Lega-Salvini-Juncker-Italy
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 11:22:15 AM by culzean »
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MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2018, 10:54:08 AM »
Not wishing to put the cart before the horse here, but when electric vehicles become a feasible reality, surely this logistical headache will resolve itself to some extent. That crankshaft will no longer be required. Specialist components will be sourced and imported for assembly but the whole process must surely be simplified, especially if we have proper free trade agreements in place. That surely must have a negative implications in the motor industry which is really oversupplied and in some cases, subsidised. I have lost track of the machinations in Italy but last time I looked, the Fiat group were struggling.  That in itself is a political banana skin but a reality nevertheless. Bottom line is evolve or die but that is the nature of innovation and enterprise. 

MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2018, 11:12:56 AM »
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?

The Japanese have been much more reliable to the UK than our European 'friends' - Japanese investment in this country has been steady has actually increased since Brexit,  the Japanese are a nation that treasures their independence and would never think of joining a political union such as EU.   The Japanese seem happy enough with Brexit,  and it has no doubt raised our esteem in their country as fellow country that wants to control its own future and trade.

 I think if anyone who voted remain has not changed their mind after seeing the way EU treats nations who are no longer happy with its level of micro-managing control of laws and trade and want out then they truly have an ostrich mentality.   According to one European leader the UK leaving is equivalent to 19 other countries leaving.  The EU is at war on four fronts - from the east Poland, Bulgaria and other former soviet states are not happy now they realise they swapped one political master for another one,  from the south Greece Italy and Spain are not doing well in the Eurozone,  and the influx of illegal immigrants with no support or answer from Brussels is creating unrest.  To the north countries like Norway and Sweden are having second thoughts,  to the west there is Brexit and Trump,  who accuses the EU of unfair trade practices and is taking steps to bring them in line.

Yes. One word. Euro. Great for the Fatherland and the northern European acolytes, not so great for the Southern European Club Med countries who have been largely subsidised, and to some extent, have become economic slaves. Trouble is, the richer industrialists do not want to foot the bill. Socialist contradictions there, which is no surprise, but that's a detail. The solution, in principle is quite simple but with painful repercussions. Float the national currencies again, where applicable, free up exchange rates and we have the makings of economic equilibrium in place but it is a 'sink or swim' policy. The funksters know this and it could lead to blood on the streets but it is the right step in the right direction. No pain no gain. They have to decide if they want Federalism or not. If so, someone has to foot the bill and right now, the big players are not exactly rushing to the fore. Smacks of 'cake and eat it' to me. Thank the 17.4 million folk of this country, and growing in number it seems, that we appear to be slowly extricating ourselves from an almight mess, albeit it at a snail's pace. Time for another cuppa.

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2018, 12:36:39 PM »
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?


That's a smashing bit of selective quoting... you include my initial quote, cut the bit where I agree with Jocko, then patch in another bit where I was talking about Mini assembly in Cowley to make it look like my response.

This is exactly what I like about political debate, all this honest straight talking!  ::)

If you really want to know what Nissan, Toyota and Honda think of a hard Brexit,

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180209/ANE/180209764/nissan-honda-toyota-warn-about-brexit-high-stakes

I'll say again, this is not about building newer models of cars in factories that are already here - in many cases, these companies haven't yet got the capacity to build  these cars elsewhere... then again, companies like Nissan/Renault and Peugeot, both of whom are significant vehicle manufacturers in the UK, may well have spare capacity available.

These sorts of decisions were pre-empted by the decisions made by these companies long before Brexit was ever dreamt possible. This is about the long term future, when decisions are made to build new plants. Major investment, not tinkering with existing production lines to make shiny new models of the same car.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 01:37:43 PM by sparky Paul »

guest1372

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2018, 01:06:34 PM »
My friends in the Midlands designing drive train components are now taking their 2nd level German language exams, although Japanese owned - the production is partially in Poland and assembly in the Slovenia/Slovakia/Austria automotive hub it seems certain the company will leave the UK
--
TG

guest4871

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2018, 01:14:51 PM »
Before we all get carried away with ourselves, let me suggest that the UK car manufacturers perhaps protest too hard and perhaps for political reasons. Nissan, particularly, is 40% owned by Renault which is 20% owned by the French Government and incidentally 3% by Daimler AG.

In the new world order, it will be very simple for the UK government to do one of two things or both for all car manufacturers.

Most simple would be to make the existing operations Customs Bonded Factories (as e.g. tobacco factories). Imported components would be imported under Customs Bond.They do not pay any tax or duty on import into UK until they leave the Bonded Factory. Exported completed cars or components would bear no UK duty or tax (but will pay local import taxes into the EU and existing other non EU countries just as now). Cars sold into the UK market will bear UK local tax.

Also let us not forget the £ is weaker now and that has all but eliminated any potential tariff differences with EU anyway.

All in all it may actually be better in the future to manufacture in UK for EU markets.

Alternatively but similar, to make them tax free Economic Development Zones which what I believe Sunderland originally was. Canary Wharf certainly was - with the intention of establishing manufacturing on the Isle of Dogs but property developers spotted the opportunity and we now have what we now have.

The car manufactures will already be aware of these options and use them around the world.

I do suspect they protest too much.

guest5079

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2018, 02:23:54 PM »
VW pulled a fast one by fiddling their figures. Punished in the USA but even then despite all the publicity, VW cars are still seemingly selling. I was looking at S/H vehicles on local sites and it was difficult to find a) a petrol car and b) I was amazed at the number of s/h VW diesels on offer.
I voted NOT to join the EEC in 1975?.  Now the original 'trade' organisation that was the original idea flogged to the UK electorate is a huge political animal that has forgotten  what the original concept was.

Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2018, 02:36:44 PM »
My brother and his wife were buying a couple of years old, "pre-used" car, last month, and the salesmen were going out of their way to try and get them to buy a diesel. They declined, despite the fact my brother has a diesel BMW 320, much to the chagrin of the salesmen.

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2018, 03:24:07 PM »
Yes. One word. Euro. Great for the Fatherland and the northern European acolytes, not so great for the Southern European Club Med countries who have been largely subsidised, and to some extent, have become economic slaves. Trouble is, the richer industrialists do not want to foot the bill. Socialist contradictions there, which is no surprise, but that's a detail. The solution, in principle is quite simple but with painful repercussions. Float the national currencies again, where applicable, free up exchange rates and we have the makings of economic equilibrium in place but it is a 'sink or swim' policy. The funksters know this and it could lead to blood on the streets but it is the right step in the right direction. No pain no gain. They have to decide if they want Federalism or not. If so, someone has to foot the bill and right now, the big players are not exactly rushing to the fore. Smacks of 'cake and eat it' to me. Thank the 17.4 million folk of this country, and growing in number it seems, that we appear to be slowly extricating ourselves from an almight mess, albeit it at a snail's pace. Time for another cuppa.

We have been lied to and mislead so much over the EU that it is hard to know who you can trust,  not Ted Heath certainly

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/britain-europe-bruges-group/
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2018, 07:18:39 PM »

Interesting read. Several words spring to mind on the way things have been and continue to be handled but it's Sunday.

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