Author Topic: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?  (Read 11099 times)

peteo48

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 02:34:23 PM »
There is more to running cost than fuel, electric cars suffer much worse depreciation than conventional cars, and once the novelty factor has worn off, sales may slow.

Also considering the huge premium electric cars command, the saving of around £1000 a year in fuel is not really a good payback.

The depreciation is massive in the first few years that is absolutely true. The new price is heavily discounted with government grants and once those disappear from the equation the depreciation looks much worse. Another factor is the pace of change. Taking the Nissan Leaf the 24 kw battery looks old hat now the 30 kw has come in and, in 2018, a 40 kw battery giving a 200 mile range is predicted. People don't want to be caught with something that will be obsolete.

A lot of EVs are leased for this very reason I suppose.

John Ratsey

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 06:43:38 PM »
If we want to seriously reduce emissions then there's a need to reduce all the travelling: eg (i) Get homes and jobs closer together, (ii) reduce the cost of moving homes to be nearer work, (iii) rationalising freight haulage to avoid goods being carried from the source at A to distribution depot at B and then taken back to A for sale, etc. Government policies could help with encouraging change if there's the political will.
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guest1372

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 06:55:21 PM »
Hopefully a Tesla 3 will be joining our family fleet sometime this year, been on the waiting list since it opened.  Have been tempted by rival marques but it's a bit of an Apple vs others choice at this stage. (And the primary driver would never stoop to a Chevrolet!)

Chevrolet Bolt / Opel Ampera-E:  60kW, "200 miles", RHD unlikely.
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culzean

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2017, 07:02:14 PM »
The internet has caused an explosion in parcel freight which has no doubt increased the amount of emissions from road vehicles.  Also you now have the spread of dormitory towns from London, with people traveling large distances to work and back.  Many years ago no one lived very far from their place of work, but personal transport changed all that. A Nissan leaf would not have got me to work and back on a single charge in my last job, so I would have needed to charge at home and at work.
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Garyman

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 04:29:49 PM »
I would had loved a Fit EV in the UK but any Electric offering from Honda in the UK would be of interest for me.

I changed jobs last year and only live 5 miles from work, and even using the Jazz isn't very economical as the engine probably doesn't even get to temperature by the time I get to work or home lol

So been looking into getting an EV but nothing takes my fancy.

A few of my friends got the Leaf on Lease about 18  months ago and they managed to get it for about £150/ month but no such deals now- you're looking in the region of £230-250/month and you can get  a lot of decent cars with that amount of monthly payments.

What i'm really keen on now after another friend has got, is these plug in Hybrids.

My best mate got a Audi A3 Etron and its just simply beautiful! Think its something like 89mpg and can just run on electric most of the time. When you want more power or whatever, switch it to duel and the speed is pretty amazing!

However, the prices of these is what is letting it down for me, simply cant afford +£25k for one, even second hand :(

peteo48

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 06:03:33 PM »
Today I heard that an old colleague had died - his funeral is next week and it's 44 miles from my house. Train is a nightmare with 3 stops and nearly 2 hours - you can get to Euston as quick.

At 88 miles it's outside of the range of the 24kw Leaf so you'd have to do a fast charge - no problem there is a charger at Chester services except when you go on to Zap Map you find it's out of order!

You could get a charge but you would have to do a lengthy detour.

Kind of brings it home to you that the current crop of EV's are a bit of a risk (unless you can afford a Tesla) if it's your only vehicle. The Plug In Hybrid is a decent compromise but, as Garyman says, very expensive new and not many cropping up second hand.

I think a EV is an excellent second car as things stand but there are charger deserts out there which could leave you stranded.

culzean

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2017, 06:23:01 PM »
At my previous company a few people opted for the Mitsubishi PHEV 'truck' as their company car,  having spoken to them after a few months it was a case of 15 to 20 miles on the battery and then 30 mpg for anything longer.  To me these outrageous claims of 140+ mpg for a heavy vehicle like this or 135 mpg for the BMW i8 sports car are nothing more than misleading advertising of the worst kind. When are some real world tests gonna be brought in to stop this kind of rubbish.  It's a bit like the old wild west at the moment with EV, there needs to be some rules put in place to be able to limit the wild claims that are being made.  There are plenty of impressionable non-technical people out there.

The daily telegraph test got just over 20 miles on the battery, and an average of 33 mpg over 500 miles.  The claimed range is 585 miles with full battery and full 10 gallon tank, telegraph got 350 miles - the battery adds 500lbs to vehicle weight,  a dead weight when it has run out of juice.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/mitsubishi/10940771/Mitsubishi-Outlander-PHEV-review.html

If you add the cost of leasing the batteries to the purchase cost and massive depreciation of say a Nissan leaf you would need to have rocks in your head to think it was a good deal.   Anyone who uses a car for a mixture of uses needs to think carefully,  especially considering the patchy coverage of charging points and the time your car needs to be hooked up to one if you want to venture too far from home.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 09:41:13 PM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 07:14:20 PM »
At my previous company a few people opted for the Mitsubishi PHEV 'truck' as their company car,  having spoken to them after a few months it was a case of 15 to 20 miles on the battery and then 30 mpg for anything longer.  To me these outrageous claims of 140+ mpg for a heavy vehicle like this or 135 mpg for the BMW i8 sports car are nothing more than misleading advertising of the worst kind. When are some real world tests gonna be brought in to stop this kind of rubbish.  It's a bit like the old wild west at the moment with EV, there needs to be some rules put in place to be able to limit the wild claims that are being made.



As we all know most "official" mpg figures are very untrustworthy but these mpg claims for PHEVs are indeed spurious.

On another note, Nissan quote the European figures for the Leaf indicating 124 range for the 24 kw battery and 155 for the 30 kw one. The US EPA figures are much more accurate showing the 24 kw at 84 and the 30 kw at 110 (give or take). The EPA figures are attainable with care from what I have gleaned from various forums. Indeed it is impossible, literally impossible, to get 124 miles out of a 24 kw Leaf. I read somewhere that you would have to drive at 30 mph on a completely dry road with a reasonable ambient temperature to get close.

Why do Nissan (and other makers) use these figures? The potential consumer remorse can only be damaging.


culzean

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2017, 06:26:41 PM »
The limit on fast battery charging has been battery temperature rise, the second one has been having enough  current available from the supply point.  Samsung may have raised battery voltage (tesla use 600 volts I think) tesla quick charge uses 120Kw output which from your 230v UK supply is almost 500 amps,  most houses get an 80 amp supply coming in from street.

A quote from Tesla tester,  Only having covered just over 200 miles we’ve got through the battery reserves faster than the computer predicted, but that’s no surprise at motorway speeds – the 312-mile range is calculated at a constant 55mph. Incidentally, a very patient American man holds the Model S world record, after eking out 550 miles from a single charge, travelling at 18mph. Restoring the car to full capacity from a 7.5kW (30 amps at 230V) home charging box (installed by companies including British Gas for around £100) takes 12-14 hours, while with a 13 A household plug (really only a last resort) you’re looking at 30 hours to replenish the cells.  The model he was testing - model S P100D costs £54,000

There also needs to be standardisation of charging voltage and plugs etc as tesla chargers can only charge teslas so straight away we have two different charge stations required.  And I would guess that Tesla is not keen for any other make of car to be able to use their points,  this may happen with other car makers too. Imagine if every garage forecourt with a finite space had to have pumps for Petrol 95 and 97, Diesel, hydrogen and LPG this would probably mean less of each pump even though some would only be used occasionally if you add different chargers for a number of electric cars it means a fragmentation that means queues and nobody is happy.

In charging any battery charging efficiency also has to taken into account, in other words you have to put more in than you can ever get back out (charging a battery is a chemical reaction, and the heat given off is wasted energy that is not stored) this is normally 80 to 85% so you are paying for 20% that you can never get back.


http://www.theenergycollective.com/schalk-cloete/2383486/electric-cars-massive-hype-limited-value

« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:03:52 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

RichardA

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2017, 08:35:24 PM »
At my previous company a few people opted for the Mitsubishi PHEV 'truck' as their company car,  having spoken to them after a few months it was a case of 15 to 20 miles on the battery and then 30 mpg for anything longer.  To me these outrageous claims of 140+ mpg for a heavy vehicle like this or 135 mpg for the BMW i8 sports car are nothing more than misleading advertising of the worst kind. When are some real world tests gonna be brought in to stop this kind of rubbish.  It's a bit like the old wild west at the moment with EV, there needs to be some rules put in place to be able to limit the wild claims that are being made.  There are plenty of impressionable non-technical people out there.

The daily telegraph test got just over 20 miles on the battery, and an average of 33 mpg over 500 miles.  The claimed range is 585 miles with full battery and full 10 gallon tank, telegraph got 350 miles - the battery adds 500lbs to vehicle weight,  a dead weight when it has run out of juice.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/mitsubishi/10940771/Mitsubishi-Outlander-PHEV-review.html

If you add the cost of leasing the batteries to the purchase cost and massive depreciation of say a Nissan leaf you would need to have rocks in your head to think it was a good deal.   Anyone who uses a car for a mixture of uses needs to think carefully,  especially considering the patchy coverage of charging points and the time your car needs to be hooked up to one if you want to venture too far from home.

My local ambulance service use these as paramedic response vehicles, presumably to replace their diesel-powered Volvo V50s.  Once the electric juice has been used though up they'll be returning the kind of fuel economy you'd expect of a four cylinder petrol-engined SUV.

John Ratsey

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2017, 05:46:52 PM »
My local ambulance service use these as paramedic response vehicles, presumably to replace their diesel-powered Volvo V50s.  Once the electric juice has been used though up they'll be returning the kind of fuel economy you'd expect of a four cylinder petrol-engined SUV.
I would hope they also invested in some rapid (125A) chargers to recharge them between call-outs as the normal chargers take 3+ hours.
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RichardA

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2017, 06:50:03 PM »
The Jazz maybe one of the first Honda models to get an electric powertrain:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/honda-get-plug-hybrid-and-electric-models-2020

John Ratsey

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Re: Should Honda supply an Electric Car in the UK?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 03:57:42 PM »
Honda have the technology but weren't overwhelmed by the hybrid Mk 2 Jazz UK sales statistics. I often wonder how well a more powerful IMA motor /generator coupled to Honda's 3 cylinder engine 1 litre and a lithium battery would work although the current hybrid Mk 3 (not sold in Europe) uses a 1.5 litre Atkinson cycle engine and a DCT gearbox. Honda also sold about 1,000 Jazz EVs in the US in 2013-14 which must have provided some useful long-term data.

The underlying problem with all the hybrids / EVs is that they are good for pottering around town or a shorter commute but give much less benefit on longer journeys.



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