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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: csp on February 12, 2020, 07:05:36 PM

Title: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: csp on February 12, 2020, 07:05:36 PM
The latest Honda Press Release confirms the Mk4 Jazz Hybrid will be available across Europe in summer of 2020, with a 1.5 litre engine producing a total output of 109 PS, prices given for Germany start from 2200 Euros (£18794), Crosstar prices from 26250 Euros (£22366).

The Press Release can be found by following the link below

https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/media/pressreleases/200543/all-new-honda-jazz-delivers-powerful-hybrid-performance-and-advanced-connectivity-3?utm_campaign=Syndicated_200543&utm_medium=RSS_All%20Press%20Releases&utm_source=hondanews.eu

Autocar coverage

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/honda-reveals-new-details-2020-hybrid-only-jazz
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: csp on February 12, 2020, 07:28:44 PM
For comparison current Mk3 Jazz prices start in Germany at  €17290.00

TREND EQUIPMENT 1.3 I-VTEC 6-SPEED MANUAL transmission € 17,290.00
TREND 1.3 I-VTEC CVT AUTOMATIC transmission price from € 18,590.00
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 13, 2020, 07:54:56 PM
Prices are high, but they are probably charged by UE fines for CO2 emissions. And all manufacturers will soon change their price lists: in Italy the Mazda mx5 price list switched from 28500€ to 33500€ (plus 5000€) for the base 1.5 soft top, and all other trims got a similar increase.
https://www.jato.com/2021-co2-targets-would-generate-e34-billion-euros-in-penalty-payments-within-europe/
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: John Ratsey on February 15, 2020, 10:17:11 AM
From the press release:


The torque from the electric motor will make the vehicle much more responsive than the current Jazz (not helped by the Atkinson cycle mode). However, I'm a little surprised that things couldn't be tweaked to get the CO2 below 100 g/km while fuel economy of 4.5l/100km is equivalent to about 62 mpg. This doesn't look impressive compared to the old mpg figures but the Mk3 Jazz is around 48-49 mpg for the WLTP testing (see https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/local/uk/cars/WLTP-PDF/19YM%20JAZZ%20-%20WLTP%20Data.pdf ) and the WLTP numbers can be bettered under favourable driving conditions.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Downsizer on February 15, 2020, 02:50:24 PM
From the UK press release:
"The total output of 109 PS / 80kW can propel the car to 62mph in 9.4 seconds and on to a maximum speed of 108mph. The effect is an effortless and comfortable journey, whether travelling through urban areas or cruising at high speed on motorways. Its fuel-efficient hybrid system produces CO2 emissions from 102 g/km (WLTP) and fuel economy of 62.8 mpg (WLTP) on the standard model and 110 g/km (WLTP) and 58.9mpg (WLTP) on the Crosstar."

The WLTP fuel consumption at 62.8 mpg is an improvement of around 30% over the current model, which is well worth having for higher mileages.

The Autocar piece in csp's link says that the three driving modes "will allow drivers to choose" the mode.  I think this is unlikely - I think the car will do the choosing according to the power required and the speed.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzMusic on February 15, 2020, 06:19:00 PM
So they took over the hardware (engine) from the Insight Mk3 which is available in the US only (AFAIK) and de-tuned it from 151 hp/267 Nm to 109 hp/253 Nm. Not sure why but maybe because of road taxes in Europe.
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
4.5l/100 km is not that low, compared to a Toyota Yaris. Compared to a 1.3 CVT (ok, not available in the UK) I only see a difference of 18% (5.5 versus 4.5), not 30%.
But a low-end torque of 253 Nm should be quite fun to drive, even though it must really feel restricted at WOT. I was really hoping for 120-130 hp. My first question would be how to free up the ponnies and tune it to the power figures the Insight Mk3 offers. :D
Or to wait for another model with more hp.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Downsizer on February 15, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
4.5l/100 km is not that low, compared to a Toyota Yaris.
The WLTP figures I've found show the automatic hybrid Yaris consumption as 4.8l/100 km, or 59 mpg, so the Jazz should improve on that by about 6%.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: John Ratsey on February 15, 2020, 08:39:54 PM
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
Honda has the 3 cylinder 1 litre engine (in the Civic but with a turbo) which, I suspect, isn't potent enough without the turbo to move the Jazz when in direct drive. I would also assume that the engine will be run as full Atkinson cycle in order to get a bit more efficiency and suspect it will be around 1.5 litres given that the CR-V has a 2 litre engine. Atkinson cycle to provide efficient power combined with a motor to provide extra torque when needed seems to be the standard hybrid recipe.

I hope that Honda has spent a bit of money on measures to get the engine up to optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible as cold engines guzzle a lot of extra fuel. The battery will probably be used to get the car off the driveway but the engine then needs to warm up quickly. Previous info suggests that the battery is only 1kWh, which isn't a lot. I have to wonder if doubling the capacity (not a lot of extra cost) would make a further improvement to the mpg.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: MartinJG on February 15, 2020, 08:51:15 PM
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
Honda has the 3 cylinder 1 litre engine (in the Civic but with a turbo) which, I suspect, isn't potent enough without the turbo to move the Jazz when in direct drive. I would also assume that the engine will be run as full Atkinson cycle in order to get a bit more efficiency and suspect it will be around 1.5 litres given that the CR-V has a 2 litre engine. Atkinson cycle to provide efficient power combined with a motor to provide extra torque when needed seems to be the standard hybrid recipe.

I hope that Honda has spent a bit of money on measures to get the engine up to optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible as cold engines guzzle a lot of extra fuel. The battery will probably be used to get the car off the driveway but the engine then needs to warm up quickly. Previous info suggests that the battery is only 1kWh, which isn't a lot. I have to wonder if doubling the capacity (not a lot of extra cost) would make a further improvement to the mpg.

Well if the size of the battery in the MK2 is anything to go by, I have my doubts. Honda seem to be obsessed with battery specs that are more suited to the requirements of a midget mobile. The dimming lights when I activate anything of an electrical nature still bugs me.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Jocko on February 15, 2020, 09:58:28 PM
The dimming lights when I activate anything of an electrical nature still bugs me.
Not something I have ever experienced with the Mk 1. Sounds like you could do with cleaning up the battery terminals, cables and your main earth cables (battery/body/engine).
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzandJag on February 16, 2020, 09:09:56 AM
So they took over the hardware (engine) from the Insight Mk3 which is available in the US only (AFAIK) and de-tuned it from 151 hp/267 Nm to 109 hp/253 Nm. Not sure why but maybe because of road taxes in Europe.
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
4.5l/100 km is not that low, compared to a Toyota Yaris. Compared to a 1.3 CVT (ok, not available in the UK) I only see a difference of 18% (5.5 versus 4.5), not 30%.
But a low-end torque of 253 Nm should be quite fun to drive, even though it must really feel restricted at WOT. I was really hoping for 120-130 hp. My first question would be how to free up the ponnies and tune it to the power figures the Insight Mk3 offers. :D
Or to wait for another model with more hp.

Not quite as bad as you feared! From memory the Insight petrol engine produces 110ps and the electric motor 129ps. The effective combined power output is 151ps, presumably in engine drive with electric assistance (available for short periods only). Honda have yet to state the equivalent combined power output for the Jazz but I would think it would be around 130ps. The insight claims 0-60 in 8 seconds whilst the Jazz claims 0-62 in 9.4 seconds which would equate to about 9 seconds 0-60.

My main concern is for how long the battery will provide the boosted performance and how long to recharge again. Only a test drive will answer these questions and I have already warned my dealer that an extended drive will be necessary!
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: MartinJG on February 16, 2020, 02:29:29 PM
The dimming lights when I activate anything of an electrical nature still bugs me.
Not something I have ever experienced with the Mk 1. Sounds like you could do with cleaning up the battery terminals, cables and your main earth cables (battery/body/engine).

Ordinarily, yes, but I had thought this was just one of those Jazz quirks. I recall several posts that alluded to this. Certainly, when the air con kicks in the lights dim slightly. It then seems to readjust and everything goes back to normal so it must be 'surge demand' related. The battery is about three years old and there is certainly no indication of a weak charge when it comes to starting up on a cold damp day which is usually the first clue. That leaves the earth. Now I know the previous owner said he had a mysterious problem with the battery draining overnight. The Honda stealers narrowed it down to a loose connection in the boot and it was fixed. Odd. Before I get too distracted with fault finding, has anyone else noticed this on their MK2? 
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: VicW on February 16, 2020, 03:09:13 PM
All the Jazz's that I have owned have shown this effect of the lights dimming momentarily when the aircon compressor kicks in so I would suggest that it is nothing to worry about.

Vic.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: culzean on February 16, 2020, 04:03:39 PM
It is probably to do with the electronic load detector / sensor on the battery compensating for extra load by telling the alternator to increase its output. Modern alternators weaken and strengthen the magnetism of the rotor to control output to just what is required. This gives the battery an easier time by preventing overcharging - and extends battery life as well as requiring a bit less engine power to drive the alternator.  I have one of those cigarette lighter adaptors plugged in, the ones with 4 LED showing battery voltage and even on the mk2 Jazz ( and Civic ) the lights show battery voltage initially falling when a new load like aircon, heated screen, electric Windows is turned on, never noticed headlamps dimming because they are LED and anything between 9 to 32 volts they give full brightness.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzMusic on February 16, 2020, 05:32:20 PM
Not quite as bad as you feared! From memory the Insight petrol engine produces 110ps and the electric motor 129ps. The effective combined power output is 151ps, presumably in engine drive with electric assistance (available for short periods only). Honda have yet to state the equivalent combined power output for the Jazz but I would think it would be around 130ps. The insight claims 0-60 in 8 seconds whilst the Jazz claims 0-62 in 9.4 seconds which would equate to about 9 seconds 0-60.
If the heavier Insight Mk3 with 151 hp does a quicker 0-60 I fear the total output of the ligher Jazz hybrid must be reduced quite a lot. So I'm pretty sure that the total output of both fuel and electric is 109 hp. A test-drive will show if that concept is going to work for me.

I wasn't aware that the Yaris is at 4.8/100 km in WLTP. With the former method it was 3.3-3.5. If the new Jazz is below that all is ok then.

Honda has talked of 6 electric/hybrids til 2022. So we have the NSX (a shot in the oven for Honda), the CR-V hybrid, the Honda e (maybe fun to drive but in my area), the new Jazz a hybrid only. What are the other two models? HR-V hybrid? Civic hybrid? Insight Mk3? They've talked of another SUV as a hybrid or electric...
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: MartinJG on February 16, 2020, 06:42:26 PM
All the Jazz's that I have owned have shown this effect of the lights dimming momentarily when the aircon compressor kicks in so I would suggest that it is nothing to worry about.

Vic.

That's encouraging. Even applying the footbrake when the engine is just idling seems to have the same effect to a lesser extent. 
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Maraz on February 16, 2020, 06:44:36 PM
Quote
The luggage capacity (with rear seats up) starts from 298 litres and goes up to an impressive 1203 litres (rear seats down, to the roof).

WOW what a shrinkage from 355l to 298l!  :o
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Jocko on February 16, 2020, 08:55:45 PM
All the Jazz's that I have owned have shown this effect of the lights dimming momentarily when the aircon compressor kicks in so I would suggest that it is nothing to worry about.

Vic.
My Jazz doesn't have air-con so perhaps that is why I have never experienced it.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzandJag on February 17, 2020, 08:50:31 AM
I have attached a screen shot of one if the spec sheets on the Japanese website. Whilst I am unable to translate the text, the highlighted figures would seem to indicate the power and torque outputs of the petrol and electric motors respectively. Hence my earlier thought that the combined output may well be around 130 ps.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Downsizer on February 17, 2020, 10:04:19 AM
I don't know any Japanese, but the text on lines 1&3 (power) seem identical, and also on lines 2&4 (torque).  Looking at the figures, I think you're right about what they refer to, although the press release is clear that the maximum power is 109 ps. Perhaps the electric motor has given up at high speed when the petrol engine is at maximum power.  The wheel/tyre options seem to be the same as on the Mk3, but the car seems to be a bit heavier (larger engine plus battery). I don't see any reference to battery capacity on that page.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzMusic on February 17, 2020, 11:14:48 AM
From the Japanese datasheet it's pretty clear that:
- the petrol engine has 98 hp at 5600-6400 rpm with 127 Nm torque at typically high 4500-5000 rpm
- the electric motor has high a low-end torque (unknown value because they only state the total torque) but falls off above 3000 rpm, this indicated low hp from it. At 6000 rpm the electro power is limited to 109 - 98 =11 hp.
- line 3+4 are the total output of the whole system. 109 hp from 3500-8000 rpm and a massive low-end torque of 253 Nm but only from 0-3000 rpm. Not sure if the engine is going to rev 8000 rpm.
- So the car will feel to the driver as a pretty strong electro car but the total output is limited above 3500 rpm to strictly 109 hp by reducing the electro motor.
- So you're going to hit the windscreen under full acceleration when 3500 rpm is reached. :P
- No hope that the total output will be 130 hp or any higher. At least the car will 'feel' like a 2.5 l petrol engine up to 3000 rpm. But also like a 1.0 l VTEC engine at high rpms.  :o
- Compared to the Insight Mk3 if the manufacturer wants to save costs he does best with the electro components like battery capacity.

I don't believe those 4.5 l/100 km. The Japanese states 38.6 km/l with a quite optimistic test cycle. This would be 2.6 l/100 km. Regarding the technology and the fact that you can reach the manufacturers no. ususally (at least I can go lower than them :D), 3.5-4.0 l/100 km are realistic, sometimes even 3.0 for hypermilers. The CR-V is at 5.5 l/100 km but it's far heavier, AWD and with a 2.0 petrol engine.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzMusic on February 17, 2020, 02:10:16 PM
These are the hp/torque figures of the Insight Mk3. As the torque is only a little bit lower in the Jazz expect the hp-curve to flat out at already 3000 rpm instead of 4200 rpm for the Jazz.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: John Ratsey on February 17, 2020, 05:30:10 PM
I don't believe those 4.5 l/100 km. The Japanese states 38.6 km/l with a quite optimistic test cycle. This would be 2.6 l/100 km. Regarding the technology and the fact that you can reach the manufacturers no. ususally (at least I can go lower than them :D), 3.5-4.0 l/100 km are realistic, sometimes even 3.0 for hypermilers. The CR-V is at 5.5 l/100 km but it's far heavier, AWD and with a 2.0 petrol engine.
It shouldn't be difficult to improve on the WLTP combined mpg if the actual usage and driving style is biased towards the more efficient parts of the test. For example, Honda's WLTP mpgs for the 2019 CVT HR-V are:  low = 32.5 mpg; medium = 46.3 mpg; high = 49.6 mpg; extra high = 38.7 mpg; combined = 42.5 mpg (for definitions of these tests see https://www.wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/ which says "The WLTP driving cycle is divided into four parts with different average speeds: low, medium, high and extra high. Each part contains a variety of driving phases, stops, acceleration and braking phases. For a certain car type, each powertrain configuration is tested with WLTP for the car’s lightest (most economical) and heaviest (least economical) version." I do most of my driving ambling along at 40 to 60 mph and the lifetime fuel consumption of my 2016 HR-V is just over 50 mpg. Under the same conditions I reckon that the Mk 4 Jazz should be good for near 70 mpg (I averaged 62.8 mpg over the year I owned a Mk 3 Jazz).
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 17, 2020, 10:21:28 PM
This is the NEDC cycle

(https://cdnwp.dealerk.com/eed49ed7/uploads/sites/144/2018/05/nedc.jpg)

Temperature between 20° and 30°C
11km, 13minutes in city mode and 7 in motorway;
average speed 33km/h, max speed 120km/h, in the 25%of the time the vehicle does not move;
aircon can stay off, as other devices as fan and lights.
And this the new WLTP

(https://cdnwp.dealerk.com/eed49ed7/uploads/sites/144/2018/05/wltp.jpg)

23°C temperature, 23km, about 30minutes, average speed 47km/h and top speed over 130km/h, aircon must be on and each configuration (tyres, aerodynamics, ..) has to be tested.
I don't know the japanese cycle, but it should be lighter than our old Nedc...

Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: JazzMusic on February 18, 2020, 05:19:53 PM
Those 4.5 l/100 km are wrong. On the German they talk of 3.6 and 3.9 l/100 km, the later for the Crossstar.
https://www.msn.com/de-de/auto/nachrichten/honda-jazz-ehev-alles-zum-neuen-hybridantrieb/ar-BBZXqpw?li=AAFtapg
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 18, 2020, 07:12:27 PM
In the italian press release they talk about a combined wltp of 4,5lx100km for the standard Jazz and 4,8lx100km for the crosstar (102 and 108g/km CO2).
Just for comparison, a standard 1.2 hybrid Suzuki Swift has a 113g/km CO2 emission value and a 5,0lx100km wltp combined consumption.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Downsizer on February 18, 2020, 07:17:52 PM
In the italian press release they talk about a combined wltp of 4,5lx100km for the standard Jazz and 4,8lx100km for the crosstar (102 and 108g/km CO2).
Just for comparison, a standard 1.2 hybrid Suzuki Swift has a 113g/km CO2 emission value and a 5,0lx100km wltp combined consumption.
I think 4.5 is the combined WLTP figure.  3.6 must be the low one, and equates to 79 mpg, which cannot be realistic for real world driving.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2020, 07:18:46 PM
This would be 2.6 l/100 km.
108.6 mpg, In your dreams.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 18, 2020, 08:33:47 PM
In the italian press release they talk about a combined wltp of 4,5lx100km for the standard Jazz and 4,8lx100km for the crosstar (102 and 108g/km CO2).
Just for comparison, a standard 1.2 hybrid Suzuki Swift has a 113g/km CO2 emission value and a 5,0lx100km wltp combined consumption.
I think 4.5 is the combined WLTP figure.  3.6 must be the low one, and equates to 79 mpg, which cannot be realistic for real world driving.
Yes, it is, I wrote it.
https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/media/pressreleases/200543/all-new-honda-jazz-delivers-powerful-hybrid-performance-and-advanced-connectivity-3
3.6 could be obtained using the NEDC cycle: they also write about 82g/km CO2.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 18, 2020, 09:50:09 PM
Quote
The luggage capacity (with rear seats up) starts from 298 litres and goes up to an impressive 1203 litres (rear seats down, to the roof).

WOW what a shrinkage from 355l to 298l!  :o
The new hybrid Jazz loses the space under the boot floor, that's why the capacity decreased. Apart from this, the normal boot space (what you find when you open the boot) should be the same of the present MK3.
Title: Re: Jazz Mk4 European Press Release 12/02/2020 Priced from 22000 Euros in Germany
Post by: jazzaro on February 19, 2020, 08:48:26 AM
I'm slightly disappointed by the mpg numbers though. A 3 cyl 1.2 or 1.3 liter engine would have shaved off a little bit more. But I understand that development costs are high.
Honda has the 3 cylinder 1 litre engine (in the Civic but with a turbo) which, I suspect, isn't potent enough without the turbo to move the Jazz when in direct drive. I would also assume that the engine will be run as full Atkinson cycle in order to get a bit more efficiency and suspect it will be around 1.5 litres given that the CR-V has a 2 litre engine. Atkinson cycle to provide efficient power combined with a motor to provide extra torque when needed seems to be the standard hybrid recipe.

I hope that Honda has spent a bit of money on measures to get the engine up to optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible as cold engines guzzle a lot of extra fuel. The battery will probably be used to get the car off the driveway but the engine then needs to warm up quickly. Previous info suggests that the battery is only 1kWh, which isn't a lot. I have to wonder if doubling the capacity (not a lot of extra cost) would make a further improvement to the mpg.
Considering that an engine used for electricity generation has to reach different tasks from an engine used in a standard car, I think that an atkinson naturally aspirated is much better than a 1.0 turbo in NVH, emission and efficiency.
Concerning the warm-up, modern engines are considered "warmed" when they reach about 50°C  (about 120°F), when the ecu abandons warming strategies (enrichment, ignition timing) because the catalitic converter reach the working temperature.