Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: guest7355 on January 16, 2018, 08:30:41 AM
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Hi all, new to the forums, so if this post is in the wrong place please move or let me know.
My wife wants a small automatic for doing daily runaround type stuff. Probably less than 8k miles a year. All the research I have done points squarely at the Jazz as one of the best in this category. I was looking at this one on auto trader:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801022380274?transmission=Automatic&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-to=6000&advertising-location=at_cars&make=HONDA&sort=sponsored&radius=50&model=JAZZ&postcode=tq47da&page=1 (https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801022380274?transmission=Automatic&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-to=6000&advertising-location=at_cars&make=HONDA&sort=sponsored&radius=50&model=JAZZ&postcode=tq47da&page=1)
But my wife got scared by an article by Honest John which said Jazzes (well Japanese cars in general) have a "scrap by date" of 7 years. This article was from back in 2010 though so he would have been talking about ones from 2003ish.
So wondering what I might expect in terms of problems, niggles, risks etc. I just got rid of a 2001 auto golf which cost me sickening amounts of money in the last 4 yrs (gearbox failure 4 months after purchase, seized brake disc, electrical issues, numerous other small problems) and I'd rather not get burned like that again. I understand there are no guarantees just want to skew the odds in my favour a bit by making good choices.
Thanks in advance.
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A couple of remarks by Which? "https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/honda-jazz-20022008 is (https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/honda-jazz-20022008 is):
"How reliable is it?
This car is over eight years old. We collect reliability data for cars between 0-3 years and 3-8 years – so whether you’re buying new or used, you can make an informed decision. We don’t include data after eight years, as reliability by this time will be largely determined by how well the car has been maintained by previous owners.
Should I buy it?
Buying an older used car can sometimes be a lottery, but the Jazz is as close to a sure bet as you're likely to get. Reliability and durability are definitely on its side."
Jazz owners (who tend to be older folk) tend to be more diligent about getting their vehicles serviced. However, one potential known problem with the auto Jazz is CVT judder. This is fixable by a well-documented procedure including two changes of the CVT fluid. Honda have now reduced the recommended interval between fluid changes.
Perhaps the best evidence for alleviating your wife's concerns is to look around and listen to the other vehicles on the road. It's quite common to see 10 to 15 year old Japanese vehicles and few look or sound like old bangers.
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I second everything John says above, there are still plenty of older Jazzes still about, giving good reliable service. They are as good a bet as you will find at the cheaper end of the market, and in terms of reliability, they are streets ahead of most European small cars. Honda's reputation for longevity and reliability is well earned.
Of course, you will find a few common issues as with most cars, but nothing that serious. From what I've read on here, the CVT is certainly no worse than any other automatic, but needs correct maintenance to keep it in good order. So long as the car drives well and the service history is all correct, I wouldn't be too worried.
There are a few CVT owners on here, they might be able to offer you a bit more advice.
As for your old Golf, it sounds like you were unlucky with some of the problems you had, but VWs of that era are well known for the poor wiring quality and electrical problems, and the Jatco automatic gearboxes were a disaster - often failing at 60-70k miles.
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I have exactly the same model, year and colour as the one in the AutoTrader ad. Had it nearly 2 years now and can't fault it, 64K when I bought it but it was a lot cheaper than the one in the ad, over £1K cheaper; perhaps the second hand prices have gone up, and that one is very low mileage?
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I have exactly the same model, year and colour as the one in the AutoTrader ad. Had it nearly 2 years now and can't fault it, 64K when I bought it but it was a lot cheaper than the one in the ad, over £1K cheaper; perhaps the second hand prices have gone up, and that one is very low mileage?
Just clicked through onto the ad, it looks nice but it is a bit dear! :-X
Mines 08 registered, it's done a lot of miles, but I paid 625 quid!
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Thanks for the quick replies everyone. Some really useful info coming in.
I was going to try and talk them down on price but now you've said that I will be a lot harder. I've heard Jazz holds it's value really well and also that automatics are 10% or so more expensive than manual which is why I didn't question it too much. This one is also comparable I think - sport model with a couple more bells and whistles but nearly twice the miles:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201712162101211?advertising-location=at_cars&transmission=Automatic&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&make=HONDA&radius=50&postcode=tq47da&model=JAZZ&price-to=6000&sort=sponsored&page=1
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My Jazz is a 2006 with over 100,000 miles on the clock. Great reliable little car. Mine has a gearbox issue, but that is only a possible problem on earlier manual transmission cars. I average over 50 mpg.
(https://i.imgur.com/O7BodhA.jpg)
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I have had to have a rear caliper replaced on my 56 plate jazz. Having a manual I have also had the gearbox bearing done.
The rear discs are not really used that much and as far as I am aware it would be better if they were drums rather than discs because the car is not really heavy enough for all round discs.
I think it cost about £130 to £150 for a new caliper and pads to be fitted.
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The first example you posted is probably as good an example as you are going to find, but it is a lot of money. When I look at £4500, I'm thinking you could be well into mark 2 Jazzes at that price.
You are going to pay more from a dealer, there's no way around that, but I would expect there to be quite a bit of negotiating leeway on that price, especially at this time of year. If you can go without a part exchange, that will help you too. One problem with dealers is that they generally want to sell you finance, as it is quite lucrative for them. If you are a cash buyer, it severely limits the profit they can make from you.
I wouldn't get too hung up about the low miles, particularly as you are intending to do less than average mileage anyway. Hondas will stand the mileage, and you would never guess the mileage on a high-miler - the interior on ours is testament to that. Personally, I would always go for newer car with average miles, rather than an older, low mileage car at the same money. They all deteriorate with age.
Check out similar cars on Gumtree or auction sites, to give you an idea of the spread of private and dealer prices.
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I'm trying to avoid the iShift models as I have only heard grumbles about them - late 2008 to 2010 I believe so that leaves me at 2011 if I don't go Mk1. The price on autotrader jumps up quite a bit for 2011s.
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My wife wants a small automatic for doing daily runaround type stuff. Probably less than 8k miles a year. All the research I have done points squarely at the Jazz as one of the best in this category. I was looking at this one on auto trader:
But my wife got scared by an article by Honest John which said Jazzes (well Japanese cars in general) have a "scrap by date" of 7 years. This article was from back in 2010 though so he would have been talking about ones from 2003ish.
That article about Japanese cars must have been written by a German. I would much rather buy an older Jap car than a 'European' one of the same age. My niece just got rid of a 2004 Toyota Corolla and bought a 2013 Skoda Fabia (on her dads advice LOL, who has the same model, don't know why he had more than a few problems with his previous Fabia, and his previous Golf the gearbox fell apart), she has had problems with Fabia already that meant it was in the repair shop for a week and she wishes she had never changed. Added to that it does not drive as well as the Toyota, she is thinking of getting rid of Skoda already and she loves my wifes Jazz but after having a drive of my Civic she is now spoiled :-X She will be going back to Jap cars soon, but whether Toyota or Honda who knows.
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The second Jazz doesn't currently have an MOT (dealer will put that right), but if you look at its MOT history https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history (https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history) it has fared well over the years, come MOT time.
The fact the MOT expired in October tells me it has been lying in his (or someone else's) yard for some time. Dealers swap cars round, that aren't selling, so you don't see the same car too long on any one lot!
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I'm trying to avoid the iShift models as I have only heard grumbles about them - late 2008 to 2010 I believe so that leaves me at 2011 if I don't go Mk1. The price on autotrader jumps up quite a bit for 2011s.
I see what you mean, having had a quick look at prices. The absence of 2008-11 CVTs is a bit of a problem.
To be fair, looking at the prices being asked, I don't think the first one you posted is way out for a retail price with that mileage and FSH. If you were interested, I would go and have a look, you should be able to get that price down. Start on the low side, you soon get a feel for what the dealer will take, don't be afraid to walk away.
For comparison at the cheaper end, there's a red 2008 mark 1 on Gumtree with 56k miles for £2250, maybe haggle down to near £2k?
By the way, that silver one is identical to mine, apart from the CVT gearbox. ;)
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These days the cash buyer[ no Pex] is in a strong position, I suggest you just hunt down a Jazz that your wife enjoys driving. After checking its service & MOT history.
Buying from a dealer you are porotected by the new Consumer laws for used cars , a private deal you might as well go to your local BCA aution to check out the trade stock - that will gove you agood idea about values.
If you find one that appeals & is tidy eg all the tyres same make and in good nick no major interorir rips or tears and has some paperwork and at least 6 months MOT then bargain hard and enjoy the new Jazz drive.
The sport spec has add ons and unlikely to bring a better drive
The key aspect with any used cars over 5years is the condition and take a 30 min test drive over familiar route/speeds etc. Happy hunting.
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...then bargain hard
I agree, especially this time of year when sales are slow.
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Been doing some digging on the first one I posted. Ad says "long MOT" but I got the reg off the dealer and it expires in March. I guess that means they've been sitting on the car for a while and that gives me more leverage to negotiate? Could I push them to have the MOT renewed before I buy?
It does have a couple of blips on the MOT history too - they don't sound concerning to me but I'm no expert (parking brake efficiency twice but I'm guessing that's to do with it having low mileage i.e. sat for long periods with the handbrake on?. Reg number is SV08XKO if any of you want to take a look.
Also ran the reg through a couple of valuation sites and won't be paying a penny over 4k I think - they generally came in at around that price from a dealer.
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I also think that 'stealers' know the Jazz is popular as a second/used car and play that card for all its worth in the knowledge that they are generally very reliable and therefore lower risk.
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Been doing some digging on the first one I posted. Ad says "long MOT" but I got the reg off the dealer and it expires in March. I guess that means they've been sitting on the car for a while and that gives me more leverage to negotiate? Could I push them to have the MOT renewed before I buy?
"Long MOT" might mean he will put a full test on it anyway. If not, and the MOT is a bit on the short side, you could either push for an MOT, or use it as a stick to beat the price down. I agree that £4k is top retail money for this, I would go in lower with cash - especially if it's a non-franchised dealer.
The only issue I can see on the MOTs is brake pipe corrosion. Some testers are a bit over-keen on this, but you can probably expect some expense replacing these over the next few years. Car was registered in Aberdeen, so I would be having a look underneath for any signs of more general underbody corrosion. The other brake related issues are as a result of low miles and/or standing, as you suspect.
Make sure the car is hpi (or similar) checked, particularly with low mileage cars. Occasionally, repaired vehicles can turn up with low miles due to the time going through the insurance write off and subsequent repairs.
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Shall I get the HPI check myself or is it something the dealer did and will have details of?
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Also if I did find corrosion underneath is that a complete deal breaker or just a way to get the price down?
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Also if I did find corrosion underneath is that a complete deal breaker or just a way to get the price down?
You will normally find the rear torsion beam member looks a bit tatty and corroded but it is thick material and not a worry, rear brake pipes where they go onto torsion beam and join up with flexible, someone at Honda thought it would be a good idea to strip the plastic coating off the last 150 to 200 mm off the steel pipes and that is where they corrode and fail MOT.
I also think that 'stealers' know the Jazz is popular as a second/used car and play that card for all its worth in the knowledge that they are generally very reliable and therefore lower risk.
Yeah, the Jazz does keep its value because they are normally pretty trouble free even when getting long in the tooth. Also the interior space is equivalent to a class above - they are called a supermini but would shame a car like a Focus for usable interior space.
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Shall I get the HPI check myself or is it something the dealer did it and will have details of?
Dealers normally do them as a matter of course, and by all means ask to see it. If you ask them if the car has ever been damaged or written off and they confirm that it hasn't, get them to put it in writing at the point of purchase and you should be fine. If you don't ask the question, it can be a very grey area.
I wouldn't worry about doing a check yourself if buying from an established dealer.
Buying private is another matter. Unless the car is only a few hundred pounds, it's worth the few quid it costs doing a check... if only to make sure there is no finance or "logbook loans" outstanding. Logbook loans are not legally enforceable if a car is sold, but that doesn't stop them sending heavies round to put the wind up the new keeper.
If the dealer has the full logbook, it's worth having a look at it, but this applies more to private sales where the seller certainly should have the logbook in their possession.
If the car has ever been an insurance write off, it is clearly declared on the front page. If all is okay, all you should see is one line, "1. Declared new at first registration". Also check the issue date matches the date of last change of owner - if it doesn't, then the logbook has been re-issued to the current owner. They may have lost the original, or they may have handed it to a logbook loan company and applied for a replacement.
Also if I did find corrosion underneath is that a complete deal breaker or just a way to get the price down?
It depends how bad it is. "Seaside cars" can be terrible, and can give major headaches later on, but you never know for sure where they have lived. The place of registration is only that, where it was originally registered.
If corrosion is excessive, it is usually mentioned on an MOT, and brake pipes are normally the first safety-related items that show signs. It's not that uncommon on the rear pipes, but the MOT also mentions a front pipe too.
If you can have a look, or get someone to have a look under the rear, you should expect to see large suspension components with lots of surface rust, and there will be some rust on the body edges at that age, but most of the underbody paint and underseal coating should still be visible. If you see more rust than paint on the body, you have a problem.
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If you are anxious about buying a car, from any dealer or privately, I suggest you consider:
https://www.dekra-expert.co.uk/vehicle.inspections
For not a lot you'll get an awful lot and a great degree of peace of mind.
They are highly regarded, independent, very knowledgeable and you get to talk to the inspector who will run through the report with you. It might save you money if not worry.
They do the AA vehicle inspections for the AA and then the AA charge you more!
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I wouldn't consider a car from a dealer without a year's MOT (or near as). Tell them you want the Honda dealer to do it, see what their reaction is!
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I have got an even older 2004 CVT model which I had purchased close to 2 years back with 89k on the clock from a used car dealer. I had paid exact £2k for it which I felt was a bit pricey for a 12 year old car, but as it was with a sunroof which I fancied and I was also getting a new MOT and 6 months warranty included so still went ahead with it...
The car ran fine for a few months but did have a minor problem developing relating to the brake light indicator turning on and off randomly while driving. Luckily the car's warranty was just a few days from expiry so went back to the dealer who got it rectified..I also had the rear exhaust come off from rust about a year back which i had to replace. So far have spent about £500 on repairs, servicing and replacing all tyres. I have to go for another MOT in a couple of months time, so I will see how this one goes, but the car is running smoothly with no CVT judder issues (touchwood!) otherwise and am now on 113k..No regret of buying it so far and is great from a family perspective.. I will definitely next be getting a newer MK2 jazz model which has an even bigger sunroof once this one goes, as I can't see any other model in the market which has everything I can possibly need and can trust..
My suggestion is that it is definitely worth getting the car professionally inspected before purchase especially for corrosion if it will only cost about £100 odd and as you are looking to spend a good few thousands. I think its also worthwhile haggling for a slightly longer warranty to be included especially if the car is not going to be used much, so that any problems discovered will be covered by the dealer straightaway..Good Luck!
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I wouldn't consider a car from a dealer without a year's MOT (or near as).
I agree. It does seem normal procedure for a dealer to get a car tested before handing it over, unless it has been tested in the last couple of months.
Your link to the previous MOT history can provide very useful information. Dealers often have a cosy relationship with one MOT tester, and the MOTs almost always come with zero advisories. Dealers usually dispose of any previous MOT paperwork that comes with the vehicle, unless the MOTs are absolutely squeaky clean.
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I wouldn't consider a car from a dealer without a year's MOT (or near as).
I agree. It does seem normal procedure for a dealer to get a car tested before handing it over, unless it has been tested in the last couple of months.
Your link to the previous MOT history can provide very useful information. Dealers often have a cosy relationship with one MOT tester, and the MOTs almost always come with zero advisories. Dealers usually dispose of any previous MOT paperwork that comes with the vehicle, unless the MOTs are absolutely squeaky clean.
Owing to the fact that dealer can be prosecuted for selling an unroadworthy vehicle I would be very surprised if they did not put it through MOT when sold, even if it was only an ar3s covering exercise. Now people can go online and see MOT history it is hard to hide previous records, and advisories are shown.
https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history
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Owing to the fact that dealer can be prosecuted for selling an unroadworthy vehicle I would be very surprised if they did not put it through MOT when sold, even if it was only an ar3s covering exercise. Now people can go online and see MOT history it is hard to hide previous records, and advisories are shown.
It's surprising how many don't consult the online MOT history before buying, or even know about it. Whilst most dealers do put a full test on, my point was that these MOTs are usually devoid of any advisories.
Then again, some of the tin pot backstreet dealers still don't bother at all, if there's a good amount of test left. I guess they're happy to take their chances and cross their fingers that nothing falls off. Realistically, the worse that can happen to the dealer is they have to take the car back and refund, even if Trading Standards get involved. The few dealers that TS do prosecute these days are the really persistent offenders with no scruples whatsoever.
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Hi all an update - I went to see the 08 today. Car is in pretty nice condition for it's age I couldn't find much corrosion anywhere and had a good poke around. Worst was the exhaust which all looked to be surface and a few minor looking brackets and such under the bonnet.
It drove smooth as well, gear changes took some attention to even detect, even when I purposely tried to confuse it which is a far cry from my golf even after the gearbox was replaced. I'm very impressed in that department too.
Hit a road block when trying to cut a deal though. The salesman didn't want to know. He had the autotrader valuation all queued up and ready to "prove" that it was worth the full 4495. I had already seen that and noted that of all the free valuation tools I tried, autotraders came out the most expensive by a few hundred quid. The most I could get out of the guy was that he wouldn't let it go for anything that wasn't in the 4s. So I told him I was going to see another car (the 07 sport model ) and left for now.
Not sure how to proceed from here. The car was great and I would have bought it then and there for the right price, but the guy didn't seem to want to know. Maybe I gave too much away... I'm not very experienced in the art of negotiation.
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It drove smooth as well, gear changes took some attention to even detect, even when I purposely tried to confuse it which is a far cry from my golf even after the gearbox was replaced. I'm very impressed in that department too.
The CVT is a stepless 'continuously variable transmission'. There are no gears as such so the transmission would appear to be very smooth.
Vic.
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Hit a road block when trying to cut a deal though. The salesman didn't want to know. He had the autotrader valuation all queued up and ready to "prove" that it was worth the full 4495. I had already seen that and noted that of all the free valuation tools I tried, autotraders came out the most expensive by a few hundred quid. The most I could get out of the guy was that he wouldn't let it go for anything that wasn't in the 4s. So I told him I was going to see another car (the 07 sport model ) and left for now.
Not very sure how good this guide is for valuation for some older versions, but atleast seems to be giving fairly realistic prices for some newer jazz's in my view. According to this the target price to buy for your car if I have got it right should only be £1.5k which seems a bit unrealistic..Maybe you should show the salesman this to get your view across for a significant discount and see what happens ;)
http://www.wisebuyers.co.uk/index.jsp?guide=prices&page=used_cars&no=3&make=Honda&model=Jazz+%282002-09%29&vip=18683&yearplate=2008%2F08&mileage=30&x=35&y=4 (http://www.wisebuyers.co.uk/index.jsp?guide=prices&page=used_cars&no=3&make=Honda&model=Jazz+%282002-09%29&vip=18683&yearplate=2008%2F08&mileage=30&x=35&y=4)
I would think getting the car for about £3500-3700 would be a good price considering the low mileage, but may require some patience with a low offer put in and some wait and watch for a few days assuming no one picks it up with a higher offer.
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Highest price on Parkers seems to be £3665 but you'd have to do a full search below to be sure.
https://www.parkers.co.uk/honda/jazz/hatchback-2002/used-prices/
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Not very sure how good this guide is for valuation for some older versions, but atleast seems to be giving fairly realistic prices for some newer jazz's in my view. According to this the target price to buy for your car if I have got it right should only be £1.5k which seems a bit unrealistic..Maybe you should show the salesman this to get your view across for a significant discount and see what happens ;)
http://www.wisebuyers.co.uk/index.jsp?guide=prices&page=used_cars&no=3&make=Honda&model=Jazz+%282002-09%29&vip=18683&yearplate=2008%2F08&mileage=30&x=35&y=4 (http://www.wisebuyers.co.uk/index.jsp?guide=prices&page=used_cars&no=3&make=Honda&model=Jazz+%282002-09%29&vip=18683&yearplate=2008%2F08&mileage=30&x=35&y=4)
Well, if it's anything to go on, I bought our 08 plate manual in June of last year and just punched in some details to see what happened... I selected a 6 month newer plate, and the exact mileage, and the trade valuation was about bang on what I paid. However, I thought it was a steal - the next cheapest 08 I could find at the time was over twice the price I paid.
That said, the valuation above does feel very low for a good condition, very low mileage CVT. Judging by the prices I've seen, if the car was as good as it looked, my initial gut feeling was around £3500 or so... so more or less the same as your thoughts.
To the OP, I think that RS's advice above is sound - bid the dealer what you think the car is worth and be prepared to walk away. Don't be afraid to insult the dealer with a cheeky offer, he will have heard it all before and will still want to sell you a car. The dealer will know his lowest price, he will know what the car owes him, and he will know how long it has sat there unsold. On the other hand, he will also want to push you for as much as he can get, even if it's only another £25 or £50 - it's all extra profit to him.
Bottom line is, if he wants more than you are prepared to pay, then you wont do a deal - it's as simple as that.
The best deals always come to those who are prepared to wait. If you must buy a car soon, that can affect your judgement somewhat, and for many people, haggling is an uncomfortable process they want done with.
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It drove smooth as well, gear changes took some attention to even detect, even when I purposely tried to confuse it which is a far cry from my golf even after the gearbox was replaced. I'm very impressed in that department too.
The CVT is a stepless 'continuously variable transmission'. There are no gears as such so the transmission would appear to be very smooth.
Vic.
pretty good explanation of CVT (which has been around for ever but recent electronics have made it behave better).
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/continuously-variable-transmission-explained/
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Highest price on Parkers seems to be £3665 but you'd have to do a full search below to be sure.
https://www.parkers.co.uk/honda/jazz/hatchback-2002/used-prices/
The truth is if someone has something people want and there aren't many of them around someone will pay asking price. It is always a mistake to look too interested in something being sold and if a potential buyer keeps going back / contacting seller trying to knock price down it is definitely showing you are interested.
More than once I have been on websites to buy stuff but only got as far as putting stuff in the basket, within a couple of days most of the sellers contacted me offering 10 or 15% discount on the stuff - always worth a try LOL
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More than once I have been on websites to buy stuff but only got as far as putting stuff in the basket, within a couple of days most of the sellers contacted me offering 10 or 15% discount on the stuff - always worth a try LOL
Years ago I sent off for a Linguaphone demo (it was a record, so that gives you an idea just how long ago it was). The course was about £300, to much for my pocket back then, but over the next two or thee years they kept offering me a reduced price until it got down to £50.
Not a lot of good when buying a car though!
What you can do is say, Too expensive, but I'll give you my phone number in case you decide to accept my offer. If he gets no takers, he may get back to you.
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You need to bid the dealer and find out where his absolute bottom price is. If it's too much, do what Jocko says and leave him some contact details
At the end of the day, only you know how far you want to go, there's no shame in overpaying a bit if it's exactly what you want, and you don't expect to see another one soon... although you invariably see one half the price once you commit, it's best to stop looking. ;)
Personally, I'm a tight arse and want to pay as little as I can get away with.
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I recently bought an old one 2004 to get the wife driving again after a work injury a few years ago and ongoing health problems stopped her driving,so wanted a small auto. Other than that i would have kept our old diesel pug with nearly
200k on it which other than a battery had been 100% reliable for 6 years we had it.
Lot of money for an old car but if compared to an auto polo was saving about £100 a year on tax,and then saving on cambelt change.The autos seemed few and far between and seem to hold value pretty well?
I checked mot history and the only advise it ever had was for a SCRATCH! on windscreen,i could only get the dealer down £50(it was previously a few hundred more apparently) but i personally hated pretty much every minute of trawling car adds and whilst i would have liked it cheaper i couldn't be arsed to keep looking as i wanted a car asap and it seemed a good car with only 53k miles,honda service history, it was 10 times better than the other one i looked at day before from some dodgy Romanian dealer (serviced by quick fit and national tyres,jerky gear box, mirror fell off before end of rd,abs light on even though new mot 2 days before) which was only a couple of hundred cheaper.
It has had a bit of a misfire and technically i have a 3 month warranty but i like the car and as he is 70 miles away and likely to tell me to bring it back i haven't even called him. The plug gaps were too big adjusting them put it right and i have new ones to go in.
Guess i am just the perfect mug punter for the average car dealer :'(
I am pretty impressed by it to be honest,feels real solidly built,no rattles or shaking over bumps.The scooter style auto seems weird to start with but soon get used to it.