Author Topic: Hello guys I need help please  (Read 562 times)

cris

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Hello guys I need help please
« on: June 22, 2022, 11:45:51 AM »
Hello, I am new here, I have a 2002, Honda Jazz, 1.2, IDSI, MT with 200k km and I have the following problem:
After  10 minutes of driving it starts to misfire/jerk like 2 or 3 times when I vary the gas pedal or I keep the gas pedal steady and the car encounters more load, I mean a hill or something like that. After a longer period of driving the engine stalls and I get P0336, Iíve gotten before P0300+ all four cylinders but that went away with a new EGR valve . The sensation is like the loss of power. The car would do this after 5 hours of continuous driving about 3 years ago, and since then it would take less and less time, from startup for it to misfire/jerk/stall. The car is also undriveable when I start the A/C it just stalls when I press the gas pedal. And this year then didnít pass emissions inspection due to unburnt hydrocarbons.
Iíve tried 6 different mechanics and havenít found the problem.
Things changed and checked regarding the problem: 4 years ago replaced timing chain, tensioners and guides  at 150k, 2 years ago oem spark plugs all 8, engine and transmission mounts, did a valve adjustment, 1 year ago replaced the fuel pump and sieve, replaced a bad alternator which was putting out 14.5V, oem EGR valve and gasket, used injector cleaning additive, changed the battery, oem crank shaft position sensor and checked the cable and connector at the sensor end, did a relearn for the sensor, it has  a good cylinder compression, checked for vacuum leaks around the mass air flow sensor and intake manifold  with carb cleaner, it burns about 1L of oil every 20k, I usually use 100 octane gasoline with not much difference from 95.
The car is becoming undriveable quick and I donít know where to go next or what to check. Mechanics donít really help where I live, they donít check they just ``change parts by ear``. Sorry for the long post.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 11:49:10 AM by cris »

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2022, 02:20:41 PM »
Those codes both suggest an issue with the pre cat oxygen sensor which is the one that controls the fuel injection rates etc.

The post cat oxygen sensor is just there to monitor the efficiency of the catalytic converter.

In general, oxygen sensors are reckoned to have a life expectancy of around 100k miles.

Not dear to buy and fairly easy to change as long as the old one has become "welded" into the socket.

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2022, 02:22:25 PM »
That should say "hasn't become welded into the socket"

cris

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2022, 02:32:44 PM »
Thank you for the help, will look in to that and come back with the outcome.

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2022, 03:56:23 PM »
Sorry, I think I must have mis-read those codes as they actually relate to misfires.
Forget the O2 sensor for now, and have a good look at the earth strap that connects the engine to the vehicle chassis. Undo the bolts, clean the surfaces back to bare metal and reconnect.
A poor earth can cause a host of problems.
Probably won't be it, but costs nothing to find out .....

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2022, 09:51:29 PM »
I was thinking more about your problem while digging holes in the lawn (don't ask ;)

What causes a healthy engine to start misfiring and running out of power after a time interval that is getting shorter and shorter?

You've done most of the obvious things  and as there is little wrong at the start, what goes wrong after a time period?

In general, an engine with good compression, fuel and a spark in the right place should run. If it doesn't, presumably it's one or the other that's missing.

Plugs and coil packs are very reliable, and give no problems on initial running. Fuel injection obviously works initially and you've changed the pump and filter.

The AC running (causing the engine to stall)  is putting a physical load on the engine and an electrical load as it pulls the clutch in.

Not sure why the alternator needed changing as 14.5 volts is a healthy voltage and is commonly seen when the battery is low and needs serious amps to recharge it. The Jazz has clever circuit that will effectively switch off the alternator output when the battery is fully charged.

Couple of suggestions.

1. Remake the earth strap connection as suggested - just maybe heat is causing expansion and loss of good grounding.

2. Listen to the fuel tank cap when you undo it. Every Honda I've ever owned makes a "pphhhtt" noise when undone, which I've always thought was pressurised air in the tank escaping. Over pressure is good, vacuum could cause the pump problems which could possibly result in fuel starvation after a period of running? Running the engine with the filler cap loose may reveal something?

As an old engineer once told me "Never ignore the obvious  :)

cris

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2022, 11:16:52 PM »
I appreciate your concern, the fuel cap goes "ppppttttsssttt" when i open it, and the reading from the alternator charge was taken by a honda dealership mechanic right before my battery ( 4 years old from new) dyed on me and then after replaceing the battery the alternator dyed soon after (more history) and i belive with some help we can get to the bottom of it, i'll try and see the outcome

richardfrost

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2022, 09:03:27 AM »
Might not be your issue but worth checking this thread as the test for the fault is an easy one and the fix is easy too. I don't see that you have checked the throttle wiring in your list of things you have done. Just read the thread. This was 2016 and this car is still going strong.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8695.msg45037#msg45037

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2022, 02:29:04 PM »
Sounds like an excellent suggestion to me. It's going to be something unusual for sure.

olduser1

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2022, 10:18:29 PM »
8 out of 10 faults nowadays are electrical, the loom issue gets my vote.

cris

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2022, 09:34:12 PM »
Hello came back with an update.
So i did cleaned the the ground wire from the battery, all good just a little corrosion with no effect. Drove with the filer cap a little undone and no change.
One very strange thing happened today, while the car was under the hot sun while working I went and did some random testing and got rpm readings from the OBD II all over the place, like 20,000 rpm the one sec. later 8,000, then 800 just random.
Latter when I got some time did some wire testing with a multimeter, engine off key on (II) connected to ground.
Throttle position sensor three pin connector, yellow had 5.00V, red (middle) had 0.03V and green had 0.00V, and green had 31.3 ohms.
Mass air flow sensor (above the TPS) two pin connector, yellow had 12.6V, red had 0.00V, red had 0.00 ohms. (WHY?)
Crankshaft position sensor, three pin connector, ground 0.00V, signal 4.99V and power 12.55V, and ground 11.6ohms. Also i checked the air temp. sensor that had good voltage (12.5V) and ground 5.00 ohms.
After putting it all back together I got P0443 Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit Malfunction and P0113 Intake Air Temperature Circuit High Input (Sensor 1) maybe from disconnecting the sensors?
The I drove the car for 1 hour with the OBDII on and read the rpms and short/long term fuel trim and found out that the misfire is a drop of about 600rpm, misfire is a sudden drop in STFT and a gain to the LTFT. At about 20% throttle open (light acceleration) the STFT jumps quickly from 0 -> +12% and random, on hard acceleration STFT vary a maximum of +2%. Every misfire and about +0.80% instant in the LTFT. Idle tends to STFT 0->-4% and LTFT to run around -3.80% steady. I couldn't make a running test with the sensors, I don't have back probes yet.

cris

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2022, 09:38:44 PM »
Maybe u can suggest some sensor I can read with the OBD II while the car is misfiring and what to look out for. I can read most of the sensor and can save freeze frame data, I just don't really know how to understand it :P.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 11:08:29 PM by cris »

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2022, 12:24:17 PM »
I'd be tempted to focus on the fact that you seem to be getting spurious RPM readings from the obd tester.

The Haynes manual states that "information on crankshaft position and engine speed is generated by the crankshaft position sensor"

If the sensor is sending spurious signals to the ECU then all hell would break loose as ignition timing and fuel injection would be all over the place, resulting in misfires, weird fuel trims etc.

I see that you have replaced the crankshaft position sensor, but it's looking like it's a likely candidate for your problems. Perhaps try taking it out and cleaning it? Sounds daft, but I had an ABS speed sensor once that gave problems due to a blob of grease on the end, and a BMW bike speed sensor that also needed regular cleaning.

Failing that, perhaps an EBAY 2nd hand unit might be a cheap way of testing?

As the obd reader is interrogating the data registers int the ECU, you would expect that reading to be what the ECU is actually reading.

Put your energies into getting the ECU rpm to sensible readings and you might well solve the problem.

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2022, 01:59:58 PM »

CRC

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Re: Hello guys I need help please
« Reply #14 on: Today at 01:17:57 PM »
In fact, based on a bit more thought from another thread, a quick test might be to disconnect the wiring for the coil pack on No.1 exhaust side spark plug and see what happens when you run the car. (Cylinder No.1 is the one on the left hand side of the car as you view from the front of the car)

This seems to be the one that causes the interference on the signal, so it would be a quick test to check the theory. The engine should run pretty well with just the one spark plug (after all most petrol cars have only one plug per cylinder anyway), but if it does turn out that it cures the problem, a new coil pack or a bit of cable re-routing should see you good.

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