Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: cris on June 22, 2022, 11:45:51 AM
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Hello, I am new here, I have a 2002, Honda Jazz, 1.2, IDSI, MT with 200k km and I have the following problem:
After 10 minutes of driving it starts to misfire/jerk like 2 or 3 times when I vary the gas pedal or I keep the gas pedal steady and the car encounters more load, I mean a hill or something like that. After a longer period of driving the engine stalls and I get P0336, I’ve gotten before P0300+ all four cylinders but that went away with a new EGR valve . The sensation is like the loss of power. The car would do this after 5 hours of continuous driving about 3 years ago, and since then it would take less and less time, from startup for it to misfire/jerk/stall. The car is also undriveable when I start the A/C it just stalls when I press the gas pedal. And this year then didn’t pass emissions inspection due to unburnt hydrocarbons.
I’ve tried 6 different mechanics and haven’t found the problem.
Things changed and checked regarding the problem: 4 years ago replaced timing chain, tensioners and guides at 150k, 2 years ago oem spark plugs all 8, engine and transmission mounts, did a valve adjustment, 1 year ago replaced the fuel pump and sieve, replaced a bad alternator which was putting out 14.5V, oem EGR valve and gasket, used injector cleaning additive, changed the battery, oem crank shaft position sensor and checked the cable and connector at the sensor end, did a relearn for the sensor, it has a good cylinder compression, checked for vacuum leaks around the mass air flow sensor and intake manifold with carb cleaner, it burns about 1L of oil every 20k, I usually use 100 octane gasoline with not much difference from 95.
The car is becoming undriveable quick and I don’t know where to go next or what to check. Mechanics don’t really help where I live, they don’t check they just ``change parts by ear``. Sorry for the long post.
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Those codes both suggest an issue with the pre cat oxygen sensor which is the one that controls the fuel injection rates etc.
The post cat oxygen sensor is just there to monitor the efficiency of the catalytic converter.
In general, oxygen sensors are reckoned to have a life expectancy of around 100k miles.
Not dear to buy and fairly easy to change as long as the old one has become "welded" into the socket.
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That should say "hasn't become welded into the socket"
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Thank you for the help, will look in to that and come back with the outcome.
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Sorry, I think I must have mis-read those codes as they actually relate to misfires.
Forget the O2 sensor for now, and have a good look at the earth strap that connects the engine to the vehicle chassis. Undo the bolts, clean the surfaces back to bare metal and reconnect.
A poor earth can cause a host of problems.
Probably won't be it, but costs nothing to find out .....
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I was thinking more about your problem while digging holes in the lawn (don't ask ;)
What causes a healthy engine to start misfiring and running out of power after a time interval that is getting shorter and shorter?
You've done most of the obvious things and as there is little wrong at the start, what goes wrong after a time period?
In general, an engine with good compression, fuel and a spark in the right place should run. If it doesn't, presumably it's one or the other that's missing.
Plugs and coil packs are very reliable, and give no problems on initial running. Fuel injection obviously works initially and you've changed the pump and filter.
The AC running (causing the engine to stall) is putting a physical load on the engine and an electrical load as it pulls the clutch in.
Not sure why the alternator needed changing as 14.5 volts is a healthy voltage and is commonly seen when the battery is low and needs serious amps to recharge it. The Jazz has clever circuit that will effectively switch off the alternator output when the battery is fully charged.
Couple of suggestions.
1. Remake the earth strap connection as suggested - just maybe heat is causing expansion and loss of good grounding.
2. Listen to the fuel tank cap when you undo it. Every Honda I've ever owned makes a "pphhhtt" noise when undone, which I've always thought was pressurised air in the tank escaping. Over pressure is good, vacuum could cause the pump problems which could possibly result in fuel starvation after a period of running? Running the engine with the filler cap loose may reveal something?
As an old engineer once told me "Never ignore the obvious :)
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I appreciate your concern, the fuel cap goes "ppppttttsssttt" when i open it, and the reading from the alternator charge was taken by a honda dealership mechanic right before my battery ( 4 years old from new) dyed on me and then after replaceing the battery the alternator dyed soon after (more history) and i belive with some help we can get to the bottom of it, i'll try and see the outcome
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Might not be your issue but worth checking this thread as the test for the fault is an easy one and the fix is easy too. I don't see that you have checked the throttle wiring in your list of things you have done. Just read the thread. This was 2016 and this car is still going strong.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8695.msg45037#msg45037
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Sounds like an excellent suggestion to me. It's going to be something unusual for sure.
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8 out of 10 faults nowadays are electrical, the loom issue gets my vote.
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Hello came back with an update.
So i did cleaned the the ground wire from the battery, all good just a little corrosion with no effect. Drove with the filer cap a little undone and no change.
One very strange thing happened today, while the car was under the hot sun while working I went and did some random testing and got rpm readings from the OBD II all over the place, like 20,000 rpm the one sec. later 8,000, then 800 just random.
Latter when I got some time did some wire testing with a multimeter, engine off key on (II) connected to ground.
Throttle position sensor three pin connector, yellow had 5.00V, red (middle) had 0.03V and green had 0.00V, and green had 31.3 ohms.
Mass air flow sensor (above the TPS) two pin connector, yellow had 12.6V, red had 0.00V, red had 0.00 ohms. (WHY?)
Crankshaft position sensor, three pin connector, ground 0.00V, signal 4.99V and power 12.55V, and ground 11.6ohms. Also i checked the air temp. sensor that had good voltage (12.5V) and ground 5.00 ohms.
After putting it all back together I got P0443 Evaporative Emission Control System Purge Control Valve Circuit Malfunction and P0113 Intake Air Temperature Circuit High Input (Sensor 1) maybe from disconnecting the sensors?
The I drove the car for 1 hour with the OBDII on and read the rpms and short/long term fuel trim and found out that the misfire is a drop of about 600rpm, misfire is a sudden drop in STFT and a gain to the LTFT. At about 20% throttle open (light acceleration) the STFT jumps quickly from 0 -> +12% and random, on hard acceleration STFT vary a maximum of +2%. Every misfire and about +0.80% instant in the LTFT. Idle tends to STFT 0->-4% and LTFT to run around -3.80% steady. I couldn't make a running test with the sensors, I don't have back probes yet.
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Maybe u can suggest some sensor I can read with the OBD II while the car is misfiring and what to look out for. I can read most of the sensor and can save freeze frame data, I just don't really know how to understand it :P.
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I'd be tempted to focus on the fact that you seem to be getting spurious RPM readings from the obd tester.
The Haynes manual states that "information on crankshaft position and engine speed is generated by the crankshaft position sensor"
If the sensor is sending spurious signals to the ECU then all hell would break loose as ignition timing and fuel injection would be all over the place, resulting in misfires, weird fuel trims etc.
I see that you have replaced the crankshaft position sensor, but it's looking like it's a likely candidate for your problems. Perhaps try taking it out and cleaning it? Sounds daft, but I had an ABS speed sensor once that gave problems due to a blob of grease on the end, and a BMW bike speed sensor that also needed regular cleaning.
Failing that, perhaps an EBAY 2nd hand unit might be a cheap way of testing?
As the obd reader is interrogating the data registers int the ECU, you would expect that reading to be what the ECU is actually reading.
Put your energies into getting the ECU rpm to sensible readings and you might well solve the problem.
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https://www.springbokphotography.com/autoelectrical/2019/7/15/honda-fitjazz-crank-sensor-interference
Could be an interesting link to similar problems....
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In fact, based on a bit more thought from another thread, a quick test might be to disconnect the wiring for the coil pack on No.1 exhaust side spark plug and see what happens when you run the car. (Cylinder No.1 is the one on the left hand side of the car as you view from the front of the car)
This seems to be the one that causes the interference on the signal, so it would be a quick test to check the theory. The engine should run pretty well with just the one spark plug (after all most petrol cars have only one plug per cylinder anyway), but if it does turn out that it cures the problem, a new coil pack or a bit of cable re-routing should see you good.
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Hello
So I rerouted the wire for the crankshaft position sensor and avoided the coil pack wire and had no result.
I noticed something else, went out to do another engine ref test to see if I can replicate the unusual revs read, so the car sat in 30 degrees Celsius from morning to the afternoon, I did the test around 2 PM, didn't get the unusual revs, but the rpm went (while idling) from 1000-1500-2000-2500 and then dropped suddenly and the engine stalled, started the engine again with the same result about 4 times more, after that it started to run normal. My question is would that point towards a evap system problem?
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http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/98/SAA2E98K72100081924FAAT00.HTML
I don't know much about the evaporative emissions control system, other than the fact that there's a solenoid with two hoses attached on the top of the throttle body.
The Haynes manual stresses that these hoses should be leak free.
The link above should take you to a test routine page. Clicking on the small icons will show the graphic.
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Reading up on the evaporative emissions system, it's hard to see how it could cause any running issues.
Effectively, the fuel tank "breather" is connected to a charcoal filled canister, mounted at the rear of the engine. This canister has a vacuum operated diaphragm that can open and control gas flow through the charcoal canister.
The purpose of this canister is to absorb fuel vapor that naturally evaporates off the fuel. To enable this fuel to be removed, there is a solenoid valve mounted on top of the throttle body, and when this is energised, it allows engine vacuum to open the canister diaphragm valve to allowed the stored fuel in the the charcoal to be pulled out and burnt in the engine.
Apparently, this only happens when the engine is above 70C, and it's unclear whether the solenoid valve then stays open all the time when above 70C.
The P0443 fault indicates a problem with the solenoid valve, but it's unclear how the ECU would know, unless it has a method of monitoring current flow on that output.
Apparently there is a pressure / vacuum relief valve built into the filler cap in case the evap system fails, but that puzzles me as well. I'd always assumed that the "pffffft" noise when undoing the filler cap was positive pressure inside the tank escaping, but the action of the evap system would suggest that it is, in fact, a negative pressure (vacuum) in the tank - which you wouldn't think would be good for a pump to pull from.
So, what could happen to the evap system to stop it operating? Well obviously the solenoid valve could fail to open, but that wouldn't be a problem to the engine as it runs quite happily without it when below 70C, so I would doubt if the engine would notice if it had failed.
Do check the rubber vacuum lines on it though, as a split would allow unmetered air into the engine and that can cause a few issues.
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This is not really any help to the OP, but just a couple of comments on evap loss systems.
Fuel tanks generally run at a slight positive pressure which helps reduce the amount of vapour given off by the fuel in the tank and also helps suppress vapour locking in fuel pumps. The pressure is self-generated by the vapour itself.
Above a certain pressure vapour is allowed to exit to the carbon can. The carbon often used to be charcoal produced from coconut shells which naturally has a very porous structure hence a very large effective surface area, I don't know what today's carbon is like. HC molecules will attach themselves to the activated charcoal surface but are relatively easily removed again by the introduction of air (with low HC concentration, the HC migrates from high to low concentration areas). Evap loss regulations essentially require (by interpretation) that there is no "break-through" of HC vapour, i.e. the can is able to adsorb all the vapour a tank of fuel can generate under test conditions as specified. Obviously the actual amount of vapour depends on how much fresh fuel is introduced and the volatility, the ambient temperature and return fuel temp etc. Modern fuel injection moved to "return-less" where there was no fuel sent back from the engine bay to the tank, which always took heat into the tank and caused more vapour.
The system allows air to flow through the can from atmosphere (not via the tank) and into the low pressure inlet manifold via some sort of control system while the engine is running. This is known as "purge". The vapour is consumed by the engine and does not escape to atmosphere.
Earliest simplest systems used a "gated orifice", a drilling just upstream of the closed throttle edge which gets exposed to the inlet manifold low pressure when the throttle is opened slightly. These systems were effectively passive with no real control system so purge rates were not controllable according to can loading.
Purge systems evolved using variable duty cycle solenoid valves so the ECU could use a feedback loop to increase purge when the can was heavily loaded and reduce it when lightly loaded by looking at the effect purge had on the engine fuelling feedback stystem. If when opening the purge valve the mixture went rich according to the exhaust oxygen/lambda sensor it knew it was heavily loaded, if it went lean it was lightly loaded and the purge strategy could be adapted to suit.
There are checks within the system to ensure that the purge is working, various methods can be used. Electrical checks can be done on solenoid valves, but typically the effect of changing purge signals can be monitored to deduce that it is indeed working.
As for the OP, I doubt the purge system is the cause of the sort of effects reported.
HTH a bit.
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That's excellent information. Thankyou.
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Chris, just a thought ..... what do your two temperature sensors show on the obd reader.
Just wondering if the symptoms could occur if the ECU believes that the engine temperature is very cold ( when it's actually fully warm) and richens up the mixture accordingly (like pulling out a manual choke on an old engine).
This could cause a lot of issues similar to those you're reporting.
Also, if water is going low in the system, this can result in odd temperature readings as the probe regularly goes from water to air and back again.
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Hello.
So I checked the temperature sensor and it works fine, also the reading is good.
I found a big crack in the throttle rubber gasket that sits between air filter housing and the throttle body, I will replace it and see if it helps.
Also the throttle position sensor reading (with OBDII) at idle is a steady 9.41% and 90.30% fully open, this readings are when the car is cold. After warm-up, the reading jumps from 9.41% to 9.81% back and forth, at 12.55% it jumps to 13.00% back and forth, after about 20% the reading holds nice and steady and throttle fully opened it sometimes reads 85.30% or 90.30% not always the same. Could this be a clue to my dilemma? I checked the cable it has good signal, I checked the sensor while backprobing and the signal was steady even while lightly tapping it, I didn’t manage to test backprobing while the engine I running or hot (the air filter box is in the way) I could backprobe while running if you guys think it would be relevant. I also noticed that while misfiring is happening the throttle position sensor reading drops. My mechanic said this was normal but my intuition would tell me otherwise, most posts about ‘’jumpy readings’’ say that these are symptoms of a bad TPS? Would a jump of arround 0.5% be considered normal and why the sudden drop of TPS signal doesnt trigger a code?
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According to the Haynes manual, there are two types of throttle control on these engines.
Both use the throttle cable from the pedal to operate a quadrant on the throttle body.
The non electronic version operates a normal, mechanical butterfly flap, with the flap position being reported back to the ECU by the TPS.
The electronic version seems to have an electrically operated flap, with the TPS just sensing the quadrant position and the ECU operating the flap accordingly.
Whichever type you have, you really don't want to find a fault as both are incorporated in the throttle body, and Haynes suggests that a new throttle body is the only repair option in the event of a sensor or actuator failure.
You would almost certainly be seeing specific codes if that was the case.
Air leaks is a good thing to investigate. Has your mechanic done a smoke test?