Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: guest5079 on May 09, 2017, 10:06:16 AM
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Although the car hadn't done the 70,000 plus miles it is now 6 1/2 years old. So I decided to replace the plugs as per the book. No 4 is a bit difficult with arthritic hands but all else quite straight forward.
After I had replaced the plugs and coils I just started the car and switched off immediately to make sure all was well before I put all the rest back.
When I came to use the car a couple of days later, it was a real pig to start, MY FAULT I should have let it run for a short while.
What a difference to the car? Even my Wife noticed the difference. Well worth the £50 off E bay.
So while it may be obvious, don't start the car and switch it off immediately let it run for a short while.
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Just replaced the Iridium plugs on my Civic 1.8 at 60,000 miles - nothing looked wrong with old plugs but as you say 'what a difference' - Could not believe how much perkier it felt (and the Civic is pretty perky anyway).
Got me wondering now if although the plugs are supposed to last 70 to 75K is it more benefit to change them earlier, I certainly think so now and will be changing the plugs in 'her indoors' Jazz Si around 60K.
@ Auntyneddy Do you have link to spark plug seller website for Jazz plugs.
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CULZEAN
I am sorry but S*DS law is in action. I always shred my PayPal invoices once I have checked them off. I have gone back to my Ebay account and all I can find is awesomesource66 (436) I don't know if you can work back from that. I paid £49.99 for the DIFR6D13/NGK94167 plugs. I have gone back to Ebay but can't find their entry The supplier was very helpful and sent the plugs tracked mail as in their words the value needed it. There is another entry but at £55.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
PS I checked the old plugs and they were still within limits, nor were the tips rounded but they were worth changing.
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Hi auntyneddy
If you log into your PayPal account, look at history, you should see the transaction you shred
I hope that helps
Many thanks
John
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Thank you. That is where I got what info I have from. I was hoping I could find their entry on Ebay but no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pv-124730-ngk-izfr6k13-6774-iridium-ix-spark-plug-sparkplug-platinum-ground-electrode-single-plug.aspx (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pv-124730-ngk-izfr6k13-6774-iridium-ix-spark-plug-sparkplug-platinum-ground-electrode-single-plug.aspx)
Opie oils do NGK for just over £50 for 4 plus delivery charge so happy with that, have seen them for as much as £30 EACH on some sites, even Cox motors are over £60 for 4.
This is the way I would do it, and most normal people I guess -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIz7bbMNmN0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIz7bbMNmN0)
This looks like the way NOT to do it – so many plugs and pipes disturbed, bound to cause future problems.
I bet this guy cleans his windows by taking the glass out WTF !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVWyJqmL3Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVWyJqmL3Y)
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awesomesource66 are selling plugs here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/NGK-Spark-Plugs-Plzkar6a-11-5118-X4-Fits-Note-1-6l/1973267379 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/NGK-Spark-Plugs-Plzkar6a-11-5118-X4-Fits-Note-1-6l/1973267379)
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I basically did it the same way as the You Tube BUT I used the 'DIY lower your GE8 Fit' site on Google which goes into accessing it all in greater detail. I DID NOT remove the wiper motor, Neither did I remove the hinge covers. I merely removed the wiper motor mounting bolts to enable the metal cowl cover plate to be removed. The only thing to be careful of is the wiper mounting rubbers which have metal inserts and are partial to dropping out. I secured them with masking tape.
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Just on the durability of iridium plugs - I find myself wondering if stop/start motoring would indicate an earlier change?
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Just on the durability of iridium plugs - I find myself wondering if stop/start motoring would indicate an earlier change?
It is the number of sparks that wear out the electrodes, so stop-start should actually help prolong the life of spark plug. Having said that I think it is better to change the plugs a bit early after my experience on my Civic where the new plugs at 60,000 miles made quite a difference. Maybe the ceramic gets coated up with carbon when plugs are left in too long and this can track some of the spark away from the spark gap. I was happy that the NGK Iridium plugs came out without any drama at 60K though, shows that the special plating on the threads does work, bought the new plugs from Cox motors, seems you have to beware counterfeit plugs from some sources. I will get plugs for her indoors Jazz from Opie as they are the cheapest reputable place I have found for Jazz plugs, which (strangely) are quite a bit more expensive than plugs for Civic.
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Iridium plugs do not have the best performance, they do have the best wear rate. copper core are the best performance wise. the only reason iridium plugs are fitted is to save a service item on fleet cars.
If you want the best performance copper, best spark
here is some info on spark plugs
Many people come to the point where they are forced to change the spark plugs on their vehicle and face a difficult decision; copper spark plugs or those of another type? You can find spark plugs in a variety of different metal combinations, including aluminum spark plugs, iridium plugs, platinum and more. Copper core spark plugs are still the most commonly seen, however, and many people agree that they are the best. However, the advertising that accompanies the different types of spark plugs is potentially misleading, so it's important to recognize the real difference between the spark plugs in question. In order to do that, it's necessary to first learn about what the metal in the spark plug is used for.
Purpose of the Metal
The metal in a spark plug serves a single basic purpose: to channel the electric energy from the plug wire through the spark plug so that it can be forced to the engine block in the form of a spark. Therefore, any metal that conducts electricity at all could potentially be used for a spark plug. The metal should also not get too hot; one of the main problems with some metals is that they overheat quickly, causing the electric charge itself to be compromised and the spark plug to not operate as smoothly.
Copper Spark Plugs
Copper spark plugs are generally considered to have the best performance of any spark plug type. This is potentially different from what advertising companies suggest, but the other metals are, unfortunately, not as conductive in general as copper is. Platinum and iridium plugs are more likely to overheat, which causes damage to the plug components and can compromise the delivery of the spark to the engine block.
Platinum and Iridium Plugs
Platinum and Iridium plugs perform at a lower level than copper spark plugs, because they are less conductive and they tend to overheat. However, the overall longevity of these two types of metal is better than copper plugs. In reality, copper has the best performance of all three and the worst longevity. Platinum has good longevity and the worst performance. Iridium has good longevity and a performance that is decent, which is why iridium plugs tend to be more expensive than any other type. Still, the difference between these plugs in terms of overall quality is minimal, as there is a trade off for each.
Most copper plugs need to be changed every 20,000 miles or so. Platinum and iridium plugs can often go for twice that before they require changing, but the overall performance will not be as good and you may have to deal with overheating of the plugs. This is potentially not worth the added cost of both platinum and iridium spark plugs, although the decision will depend upon your preference.
no race cars use iridium plugs, the over heating cause bad combustion and power loss, also poor idle can be a direct problem with over heated iridium spark plugs.
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The electrical conductivity of the copper is not really an issue on spark plugs (a lot of spark plugs, including the Jazz have an electrical resistor built into plug body to cut down electrical interference to other car components, this used to be built into plug cap or lead on older systems) - the spark is high voltage but low current - however the good thermal conductivity of copper will help to keep tip cool in extreme (race car) conditions. I'm guessing race engine get their plugs changed every race, so life not a problem but because of the 'extreme' combustion conditions on race cars - and Iridium plugs in motorbikes have to be replaced more frequently than in a car engine for same reason) they rely on the copper to help cool the plugs, this is not necessary in a low tune car engine, so the fact that race engines use 'copper' is pretty irrelevant for road car combustion conditions.
The benefits of Iridium far outweigh the downside for most road car uses, the finer electrode diameters channels the spark better (the swirl in the combustion chamber can try to blow spark out, so it needs all the help it can get) - the finer electrodes also reduce the strain on the ignition coil (many GD Jazz rear coils have failed, most likely due to plugs never being changed, the gap opens up - more voltage required to jump gap - extra strain on coil insulation = failed coil). The way the coil works is that energy is stored in a magnetic material by the primary coil (high current - low voltage), when the primary current flow is interrupted (used to be by mechanical 'points' but now is a solid state transistor or such) the magnetic field collapses - energy cannot return via primary coil so it develops a high voltage in secondary coil (low current - high voltage = the bit the plug is connected to) this voltage will keep rising until it finds an escape path (the plug gap) - if the gap is too large the voltage will spark over somewhere else in the circuit (the insulation in the coil) causing damage.
Iridium plugs keep their design gap for much longer due to the fact they resist the eroding effect of the electrical spark and combustion heat much better - this means that the ignition coil has less work to do throughout the much longer plug life - due to the fact that coils cost a lot more than plugs and a failed coil can leave you stranded my vote is for Iridium every time. If I used copper plugs in my motorbike I would be replacing them about every 5,000 miles, the Iridium last 15,000 - it's a no brainer.
here is quote from NGK website.
5.“Copper plugs”
“Copper spark plugs” is a term mistakenly used for a standard material spark plug. A standard material spark plug traditionally uses a nickel-alloy outer material fused to a copper core. Almost all spark plugs use a copper core center to conduct the electricity, jump the gap, and promote heat dissipation. However, as an outer electrode material, copper would not be a good choice, as it is soft and has a low melting point (resulting in a plug that would last minutes, not miles). Nearly all NGK spark plugs, including precious metals iridium and platinum, have a copper core. When one talks in terms of nickel alloys, platinum and iridium, one is referring to its durability, or how long a spark plug will last before it needs to be replaced. However, when one talks about copper, he or she is referring to its ability to conduct electricity that is needed to fire across the gap and ignite the air-fuel mixture
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs (https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs)
from same site....(plenty more videos on the site)
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/videos/video-when-should-i-use-a-resistor-spark-plug (https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/videos/video-when-should-i-use-a-resistor-spark-plug)
Interestingly NGK says that because of the special tri-valent plating on threads use of anti-sieze is not recommended and plugs should be installed with a dry thread, also anti-sieze acts as a lubricant and can result in over tightening of plugs.
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I assumed that as the on line manual makes reference, including part nos, to Honda tools that the manual is a download of the Honda workshop manual. At the bottom of the page on plug replacement, it states 'Apply small amount of anti-seize compound to the plug threads---------'
As I could not get my torque wrench into the space I followed the instructions on the plug boxes. Using a 3/8 socket ratchet I would suggest that unless one uses brute force the plug box instructions would enable the installer to get the torque approximately correct.
Here we have a case of two expert opinions, one from the plug manufacturer and one presumably from the car manufacturer.
As always it would be nice if perhaps they got together.
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For a normal life 'copper' spark plug (presumably without the special long life tri-valent thread plating) maybe anti-seize is still a good idea to stop plating bonding with aluminium of cylinder head. Maybe NGK think that with their plugs anti-seize not needed and may interfere with heat transfer from plug to head. I will not use anti-seize on iridium plugs because there was no sign of it on civic plugs I just changed and they came out no drama.
Having looked at Honda Fit (USA) forum, they are replacing their plugs at around 150,000 miles - wonder what the difference in plugs is (they get the 1.5VTEC engine, maybe it is easier on plugs). I know you can get Denso and NGK 'tough' plugs that can go over 100K, but 150K is mind boggling.
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge8-specific-diy-repair-maintenance-sub-forum/73214-diy-get-access-spark-plug-2009-sport.html (https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge8-specific-diy-repair-maintenance-sub-forum/73214-diy-get-access-spark-plug-2009-sport.html)
read this bit as well, shows you how to get access.....
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge8-specific-diy-repair-maintenance-sub-forum/33846-diy-lower-your-ge8-fit.html (https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-generation-ge8-specific-diy-repair-maintenance-sub-forum/33846-diy-lower-your-ge8-fit.html)
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The 2nd link CULZEAN refers to, is the one that can be accessed via Google. In fact it has jogged my memory, it was on the fitfreak site where I first found the link.
If you ignore the bits that don't matter I found it very easy to follow, in fact I downloaded it for my 'reference book' to be kept for any future foray to the back of the engine.
Incidentally it illustrates in the first link where anti seize is shown, how easily us poor mutts can be confused.
In the first link it speaks of special grease for electrical connections. I can only find NO-OX-ID which although available in the UK £20 plus postage is a bit much.
Are there any alternatives to this special grease available in the UK at a reasonable price. In most cases we motorists only need a small tube.
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Are there any alternatives to this special grease available in the UK at a reasonable price. In most cases we motorists only need a small tube.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/servisol-multi-purpose-silicone-grease-50g-tube-re90x (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/servisol-multi-purpose-silicone-grease-50g-tube-re90x)
or alternatively good old white petroleum jelly (Vaseline is as good as anything, I use it on my battery terminals etc)
The silicone grease has high film strength and good insulating properties which can be a problem on low voltage terminals if it actually gets between the contact faces (it is more for insulating stuff that is already connected to keep water out) - Vaseline (originally Silkolene - made by Silkolene oil company, Stoke) has low film strength so that it easily pushes away from contact faces to allow contact, but will seal water and oxygen out of the plug.
Personally I would use Vaseline for car / motorbike plugs / sockets that don't live in a hot place, as the Vaseline can melt at fairly low temp, and silicone grease for higher voltage stuff (or anything that may get hot).
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Good post, I do the same.
Plasma.
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Although the handbook says DIFR6D13 plug Opie oils supplied me IZFR6K13 plugs for my wifes 2012 Si
Have checked the Spec and all looks OK, see attached PDF
For £50 inc VAT i am not complaining, considering the eye-watering cost of these plugs from Honda.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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from Opie oils 1 got the following..........
complete set oil/cabin air/engine air filters for both a Civic and a Jazz (Mahle oil and engine air filters (made in Austria) and Bosch cabin filters)
4 NGK Laser Irdium / platinum spark plugs for Jazz (£50 inc VAT)
4 litres Castrol magnatec fully synth
ALL above for less than £130 inc VAT
Halfords will sell you Denso spark plugs for Jazz for £36.50 EACH, they don't seem to sell packs of 4
Cox motors price £66.96 Inc VAT
part number 12290RB0J01 [Genuine Honda Jazz Spark Plug Set (Iridium)-2009-2015 is in stock ]
Manufactured by: Honda
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Having just changed the spark plugs on 2011 Si I noticed the difference in electrode arrangement on the IZFR6K13 and DIFR6D13 (original OEM plugs).
Attached is a photo showing this, the plug on the right is the ones I have just taken out of Jazz (DIF), the plug on the left is one from my Civic but electrode arrangement is the same as IZFR6K13 I got from Opie for Jazz, plugs are equivalent in heat range and everything else (see my earlier post above).
The spark plugs came out easily and no real drama removing the wipers and other stuff, some of the screws were a bit tight due to corrosion but not a problem, the blue clips come out cleanly as long as you pull the plastic away from the bottom of windscreen first and don't try to lift it from the engine side, which puts a side load on the clips. I did not remove wiper motor, just undid screws holding the rubber feet and eased the metal tray from under it. I did notice water had pooled under wiper motor and drilled a 6mm drain hole in what I judged to be lowest point of the tray underneath. Gave the motor and aluminium bracket a good coat of ACF-50 spray (use it on my motorbike), and also inside the electrical plug / socket.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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They look like two totally different plugs altogether. It would be easier to tell if you could see the full extent of the thread. Looks from the photo as if the spark would be in a totally different spot in the combustion space. I take it from your post that you have concerns too?
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They look like two totally different plugs altogether. It would be easier to tell if you could see the full extent of the thread. Looks from the photo as if the spark would be in a totally different spot in the combustion space. I take it from your post that you have concerns too?
The plugs are identical in heat range, thread length etc and the spark in the IZ is actually further into combustion chamber, they both have iridium centre and platinum ground. I don't really have a concern and just posted pic for information. Car started fine and ran well, have not tried it on road yet (it is my wife's car) but when I get to drive it I will update.
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I was always under the impression that the position of the spark in the combustion chamber was very tightly governed, as its position determines the flame front which effects timing and chance of knocking. On modern engines a knock sensor keeps an eye on things but power or, more likely, mpg may suffer.
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I was always under the impression that the position of the spark in the combustion chamber was very tightly governed, as its position determines the flame front ....
The F1 guys are igniting outside of the cylinder in a small pre-mix chamber then sending this in to mix with the primary fuel/air. Instead of a progressive dome shaped burn they are burning further up to the cylinder/piston surfaces faster and leaner.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f1+turbulent+jet+ignition&num=100&tbm=isch (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f1+turbulent+jet+ignition&num=100&tbm=isch)
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TG
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Because I could find no supplier listing the recommended NGK IZFR plugs I went onto the NGK site and there found the DIFR6 plugs. As the info sheet was dated 7 2016 one can only assume NGK have superceded the IZFR plug.
Which of course manufacturers are prone to do hiding under the guise of improvement.
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Because I could find no supplier listing the recommended NGK IZFR plugs I went onto the NGK site and there found the DIFR6 plugs. As the info sheet was dated 7 2016 one can only assume NGK have superceded the IZFR plug.
Which of course manufacturers are prone to do hiding under the guise of improvement.
My wife's 2012 si handbook lists the DIFR plug as recommended type and I was supplied IZFR type recently. Happy to say had the chance to drive her indoors si around north Wales today averaged 53mpg and ran better than before I replaced DIFR plugs with the IZFR. All I found was that DIFR is a lot more expensive than IZFR, so if IZFR does the job why pay more (noted on fitfreak usa site that some members have problems trying to get DIFR plugs). IZFR seem much easier to obtain, and as I posted earlier, the spec is identical with Iridium centre and platinum ground electrode, just that on IZFR the ground electrode does not project as far.
The DI stands for 'double fine electrode' - some blurb in link below about improved ignitability etc. But if you can't get them easily in aftermarket what is the point, I think my 200 mile run today proved the IZ perform as well (if not better) anyway.
https://www.ngk.com/glossary/8/spark-plug/D (https://www.ngk.com/glossary/8/spark-plug/D)